Politics of the Free - It’s because Democrats, stupid. - The Bear and Badger

djchump

You gotta lol about the justifications and waving away of the Russian issue. So Patriot, Much America!

RedDave2

djchump wrote:

You gotta lol about the justifications and waving away of the Russian issue. So Patriot, Much America!

I was genuinely eye opened by that. I knew America loved the cult of personality but I always figured patriotism would win out. What did I know?

g.man

We're living in an age where an increasing amount of people genuinely believe the fucking world is flat, so a big thumbs up for Donald Trump doesn't suddenly seem like such a stretch of the imagination.

djchump

People will believe any old shit if they're motivated.
I guess that's quite impressive, really.

Yossarian

RedDave2 wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

You’re missing my point. Yes, he has a hardcore fan base which none of this will shift, but I don’t think that everyone who elected him was in that hardcore, those softer votes are the ones that can be affected here, most likely being shown through lower turn-out in the midterms. It won’t take many of those being lost to see him in trouble in 2020.

I'm not talking about just his hardcore fanbase. I think he will have a lot of supporters who will try and reason this out. They will make excuses for him.

There's the white vote. Whether we agree with them or not, there is a sizable white america who feel their own country is being taken over by dark skinned people who have their own culture. They see their america changing and Trump is the defender of that. For these people (and I dont mean them as all racist, just those who are scared by change) his faults are outweighed by what he offers.

For others, America is in a better place jobs wise and market wise than before. They might not like the guy but why rock the boat when things are good?

Corrupt, charismatic Politicians are nothing new. Some people will be happy to excuse him because he is a 'winner'. It's not just an american things - Haughey in Ireland, Berlusconi in Italy...

For the money focused elite, Trump is their champion. Granted that might be a small vote but its still a vote (as well as financial backing)

There are also Conservatives who may not approve of him as a person but if he keeps them with control of the country, they have already shown they will give him a lot of leway.

Trump won because of the white vote, that is his hardcore fan base.

The rest is all soft support at best. He’s going to look a lot less like a winner if Trump junior is indicted (which is surely only a matter of time), while the money-focused elite are less than delighted with Trumps protectionist instincts, meanwhile the conservatives are precisely the soft support which I believe he is risking at the moment. They may be willing to give him leeway, but are they willing to go out and vote? That’s the question here.

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

You’re missing my point. Yes, he has a hardcore fan base which none of this will shift, but I don’t think that everyone who elected him was in that hardcore, those softer votes are the ones that can be affected here, most likely being shown through lower turn-out in the midterms. It won’t take many of those being lost to see him in trouble in 2020.

I'm not talking about just his hardcore fanbase. I think he will have a lot of supporters who will try and reason this out. They will make excuses for him. There's the white vote. Whether we agree with them or not, there is a sizable white america who feel their own country is being taken over by dark skinned people who have their own culture. They see their america changing and Trump is the defender of that. For these people (and I dont mean them as all racist, just those who are scared by change) his faults are outweighed by what he offers. For others, America is in a better place jobs wise and market wise than before. They might not like the guy but why rock the boat when things are good? Corrupt, charismatic Politicians are nothing new. Some people will be happy to excuse him because he is a 'winner'. It's not just an american things - Haughey in Ireland, Berlusconi in Italy... For the money focused elite, Trump is their champion. Granted that might be a small vote but its still a vote (as well as financial backing) There are also Conservatives who may not approve of him as a person but if he keeps them with control of the country, they have already shown they will give him a lot of leway.

Trump won because of the white vote, that is his hardcore fan base. The rest is all soft support at best. He’s going to look a lot less like a winner if Trump junior is indicted (which is surely only a matter of time), while the money-focused elite are less than delighted with Trumps protectionist instincts, meanwhile the conservatives are precisely the soft support which I believe he is risking at the moment. They may be willing to give him leeway, but are they willing to go out and vote? That’s the question here.

The other question is who the democrats push forward. No disrespect to the lady but Clinton lost a lot of votes to Trump simply because of who she is (and yes, gender is a part of that). I've seen quite a few articles linking Warren with the nod and I feel she could well come up against the same issues.

Anyway, I would hope America sees sense but in an era of Trump, Brexit, Flat earthing, Climate change denial... Just not sure I have the same faith you do.

Unlikely

Trump uncharacteristically quiet about the Manafort/Cohen verdicts on Twitter. Presumably because his lawyers have told him WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T FUCKING POST ABOUT THIS ON TWITTER.

Yossarian

Aside from gender and party affiliation, I’m not sure there’s much similarity between Warren and Clinton.

And, FWIW, I’d say I have hope more than faith. I need me some hope.

Diluted Dante

Aside from being a woman and a Democrat, Warren is nothing like Clinton.

Yossarian

Clinton’s major weaknesses were being too much of a party insider and too in-hock to corporate interests. Warren is doing this:

https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2018/08/21/elizabeth-warren-lobbying-crackdown-745261

RedDave2

Diluted Dante wrote:

Aside from being a woman and a Democrat, Warren is nothing like Clinton.

I'm speaking in very broad strokes - age, gender, party politics, progressive (granted Warren is more). Personally I think she would have made a better candidate bringing a bit of the best of both Sanders and Clinton. But there's no room for subtlety in the American 2 party system.

GooberTheHat

RedDave2 wrote:

djchump wrote:

You gotta lol about the justifications and waving away of the Russian issue. So Patriot, Much America!

I was genuinely eye opened by that. I knew America loved the cult of personality but I always figured patriotism would win out. What did I know?

From my experience the majority of Americans don't support Trump.

GooberTheHat

g.man wrote:

We're living in an age where an increasing amount of people genuinely believe the fucking world is flat, so a big thumbs up for Donald Trump doesn't suddenly seem like such a stretch of the imagination.

Not true, it's just the idiots that do are now able to be heard more easily.

RedDave2

Senior Republicans hesitate to criticise Trump after Manafort and Cohen verdicts

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/22/senior-republicans-hesitate-to-criticise-trump-after-manafort-and-cohen-verdicts?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Says a lot. To me anyway.

GooberTheHat wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

djchump wrote:

You gotta lol about the justifications and waving away of the Russian issue. So Patriot, Much America!

I was genuinely eye opened by that. I knew America loved the cult of personality but I always figured patriotism would win out. What did I know?

From my experience the majority of Americans don't support Trump.

I wonder on this because my experience has been the same but then most Americans I meet are either tourists who are generally much more likely to be democratic anyway or they are people through work connections which given I'm in catering involves a lot of non-white Americans.

GooberTheHat

Mine have mostly been white Americans who are, have been, or are linked to, government employment.

Yossarian

Of course they aren’t criticising Trump, senior Republicans are spineless, however, there will certainly be fewer of them after November, and the ones that are left are likely to be thinking carefully about the pros and cons of backing Trump.

Yossarian

Most people currently expect democrats to take control of Congress in November. The senate is far less likely but not impossible, if they swing that too it will be a pretty remarkable repudiation of Trump.

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

Most people currently expect democrats to take control of Congress in November. The senate is far less likely but not impossible, if they swing that too it will be a pretty remarkable repudiation of Trump.

I truly hope so. Trump had been so much more toxic than I expected. Getting him out of office would be great but if he also gets some form of criminal prosecution, that would be gravy.

acemuzzy

Trump behind bars, can you imagine?

hunk

Crooked Donald?
Who woulda thunk?

Diluted Dante

RedDave2 wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

Aside from being a woman and a Democrat, Warren is nothing like Clinton.

I'm speaking in very broad strokes - age, gender, party politics, progressive (granted Warren is more). Personally I think she would have made a better candidate bringing a bit of the best of both Sanders and Clinton. But there's no room for subtlety in the American 2 party system.

They weren't the attack points though. Bengazi, emails, Wall Street, establishment.

None of those can be used against Warren.

djchump

Yeah but they'll find something though. "Socialism" still seems to be a bad word for lots of Americans, because their healthcare system is so insane it's made them all insane.
Hopefully Ocasio-Cortez represents a new generation/wave coming through, rather than being an anomaly, but Donald Trump is president so there goes hope.

JonB

RedDave2 wrote:

Senior Republicans hesitate to criticise Trump after Manafort and Cohen verdicts https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/22/senior-republicans-hesitate-to-criticise-trump-after-manafort-and-cohen-verdicts?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard Says a lot. To me anyway.

Presumably there's a point where that support suddenly vanishes. I don't think it's a gradual process, more like a swift 180 if/when the shit really hits the fan.

g.man

GooberTheHat wrote:

g.man wrote:

We're living in an age where an increasing amount of people genuinely believe the fucking world is flat, so a big thumbs up for Donald Trump doesn't suddenly seem like such a stretch of the imagination.

Not true, it's just the idiots that do are now able to be heard more easily.

There are a lot of idiots in the world tho.

Yossarian

djchump wrote:

Yeah but they'll find something though. "Socialism" still seems to be a bad word for lots of Americans, because their healthcare system is so insane it's made them all insane.
Hopefully Ocasio-Cortez represents a new generation/wave coming through, rather than being an anomaly, but Donald Trump is president so there goes hope.

The irony is that the US leans pretty solidly Democrat overall, the only republican president to have won the popular vote this century was Bush in his re-election (he lost it when he was first elected).

The reason for all of the Republican power mostly stems from a combination of gerrymandering, voter suppression and the nonsense of the electoral college handing more weight to rural, and conservative-leaning, voters.

The fact is that all of this is already shifting and has been for decades now, it’s just that it hasn’t shifted enough to overcome all of the structural obstacles that the GOP has put in place.

poprock

Our view from this side of the pond often misses the loyalty/allegiance side to American voting habits. People hold allegiance to either the Republicans or Democrats, and they don’t change sides. It’s unthinkable. It’d be like changing which football team you support. It’s often irrational and current party policies have little bearing on that enduring allegiance.

All this feels irrational to us, particularly when the office of President is supposed to be separate from party politics – they elect the person, not the party, to be President. But it’s the two big parties who put their ‘best’ candidate forward.

The contradictions inherent in it all can be a real headfuck, and sometimes hold us back us from understanding why Americans make the choices they do.

Yossarian

Except the largest registered group is independents.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx

Diluted Dante

Actually, the solidification of party support is only a relatively recent development Pop. Previously people would be much more likely to switch presidential vote based on the candidate.

Diluted Dante

Updating Firefox signed me out and put me onto the first page for some reason.

poprock wrote:

I’m voting Frank Underwood. www.fu2016.com

This has not aged well.

I_R

We're going back again to waiting for Republicans in congress to hear enough disapproval from constituents to turn against Trump. I'd list the embarrassments that haven't done that so far, but there's too many. These convictions might lead to something, but I wouldn't hold out much hope. I suspect the nightly network news did for Nixon, I doubt even Fox has that clout with Republicans now.

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