But you were being excluded, it's inevitable. I mean, simply having a meal just with your family is going to exclude any other culture in the majority of cases, and conversations will be had in those situations which won't be had outside them, purely owing to everyone sharing a common culture and set of knowledge relating to that culture. It's pretty much the same thing here, it's just that because these conversations are being held on a public platform anyone can jump in.RedDave2 wrote:Yos, I'm not arguing that people didn't face different challenges or more when they are in different cultures and countries, my point is that they could have these cultures within Dublin without feeling they had to close off from the other cultures. My post wasn't about things being easier or better for me, it was that all the cultures got along. The Chinese, the Hungarians, the Nigerians, polish, the English all got along without feeling a need to exclude.
Liveinadive wrote:Sure. I'm one for separating art from artist and it's not like he has gone full paedo or anything.
Yossarian wrote:But you were being excluded, it's inevitable. I mean, simply having a meal just with your family is going to exclude any other culture in the majority of cases, and conversations will be had in those situations which won't be had outside them, purely owing to everyone sharing a common culture and set of knowledge relating to that culture. It's pretty much the same thing here, it's just that because these conversations are being held on a public platform anyone can jump in.RedDave2 wrote:Yos, I'm not arguing that people didn't face different challenges or more when they are in different cultures and countries, my point is thseeat they could have these cultures within Dublin without feeling they had to close off from the other cultures. My post wasn't about things being easier or better for me, it was that all the cultures got along. The Chinese, the Hungarians, the Nigerians, polish, the English all got along without feeling a need to exclude.
RedDave2 wrote:Yossarian wrote:But you were being excluded, it's inevitable. I mean, simply having a meal just with your family is going to exclude any other culture in the majority of cases, and conversations will be had in those situations which won't be had outside them, purely owing to everyone sharing a common culture and set of knowledge relating to that culture. It's pretty much the same thing here, it's just that because these conversations are being held on a public platform anyone can jump in.RedDave2 wrote:Yos, I'm not arguing that people didn't face different challenges or more when they are in different cultures and countries, my point is thseeat they could have these cultures within Dublin without feeling they had to close off from the other cultures. My post wasn't about things being easier or better for me, it was that all the cultures got along. The Chinese, the Hungarians, the Nigerians, polish, the English all got along without feeling a need to exclude.
With respect, I think you're missing what I'm trying to say and I certainly am not getting your point.
Yossarian wrote:You’re saying that ideally, everyone would just get along without the need for spaces where people from a specific background would exclude people from another background. As an example of this, you’ve proffered a period in your life where you felt this has happened as an example of what the ideal is. I’m pointing out that that the minorities that you worked with in this time would always have been an opportunity to exclude you, and that they almost certainly did, maybe not to your face, but simply by choosing to spend time with people of a similar cultural background from time to time in order to be able to discuss things they wouldn’t have been able to discuss with those from a different background.RedDave2 wrote:With respect, I think you're missing what I'm trying to say and I certainly am not getting your point.Yossarian wrote:But you were being excluded, it's inevitable. I mean, simply having a meal just with your family is going to exclude any other culture in the majority of cases, and conversations will be had in those situations which won't be had outside them, purely owing to everyone sharing a common culture and set of knowledge relating to that culture. It's pretty much the same thing here, it's just that because these conversations are being held on a public platform anyone can jump in.RedDave2 wrote:Yos, I'm not arguing that people didn't face different challenges or more when they are in different cultures and countries, my point is thseeat they could have these cultures within Dublin without feeling they had to close off from the other cultures. My post wasn't about things being easier or better for me, it was that all the cultures got along. The Chinese, the Hungarians, the Nigerians, polish, the English all got along without feeling a need to exclude.
RedDave2 wrote:Not quite. We were all able to converse on any range of topics include issues relating to our own cultures. Politics was often an issue and everyone could bring their own experience to the conversation and (crucially) could comment on others. We disagreed and argued sure over this things for sure, but there was never a straight "well, you arent x so you cant comment". There was explanation of why not being x meant you may be misunderstanding the situation or had gotten things wrong but no straight you have no space to comment here. I understand your point, everyone needs their own space to fall back to, regardless of whether we are talking from a cultural or personal space but the key thing I may not be getting across is that the Kanye thing (to take it back to it) is as much about a celebrity figure in the public space as opposed to a purely black person. Therefore I feel everyone is entitled to comment on it.You’re saying that ideally, everyone would just get along without the need for spaces where people from a specific background would exclude people from another background. As an example of this, you’ve proffered a period in your life where you felt this has happened as an example of what the ideal is. I’m pointing out that that the minorities that you worked with in this time would always have been an opportunity to exclude you, and that they almost certainly did, maybe not to your face, but simply by choosing to spend time with people of a similar cultural background from time to time in order to be able to discuss things they wouldn’t have been able to discuss with those from a different background.With respect, I think you're missing what I'm trying to say and I certainly am not getting your point.But you were being excluded, it's inevitable. I mean, simply having a meal just with your family is going to exclude any other culture in the majority of cases, and conversations will be had in those situations which won't be had outside them, purely owing to everyone sharing a common culture and set of knowledge relating to that culture. It's pretty much the same thing here, it's just that because these conversations are being held on a public platform anyone can jump in.Yos, I'm not arguing that people didn't face different challenges or more when they are in different cultures and countries, my point is thseeat they could have these cultures within Dublin without feeling they had to close off from the other cultures. My post wasn't about things being easier or better for me, it was that all the cultures got along. The Chinese, the Hungarians, the Nigerians, polish, the English all got along without feeling a need to exclude.
RedDave2 wrote:@chump - very fair point and I get that. But again, this isn't about a private conversation between groups of people. The crux of that is that if you are white you dont really get to talk to anyone black about what Kanye (a very public figure) is doing.
Yossarian wrote:That’s not the crux of it at all.@chump - very fair point and I get that. But again, this isn't about a private conversation between groups of people. The crux of that is that if you are white you dont really get to talk to anyone black about what Kanye (a very public figure) is doing.
What about it? That's not what the article said. At all. That whole bit about "feel free to chat to all your white friends about it, but don't expect a bunch of black people you don't know to be welcoming if you rock up and start giving them your tuppence worth".RedDave2 wrote:... Regarding the pub analogy though, what if I am at one table discussing the Kanye issue with my friends and someone from another table taps me on the shoulder and says "you aren't allowed to talk about that". ...
Yossarian wrote:The crux is don’t insert yourself in others’ public conversations in order to offer your own criticisms.
hunk wrote:@RedDave2 See, this is the awkwardness I was getting at Sorry, didn't mean to come across as accusing people. It's more about what certain nation states did rather than the current citizens so not accusing you or the average white person. All in US context of course.
RedDave2 wrote:Yossarian wrote:The crux is don’t insert yourself in others’ public conversations in order to offer your own criticisms.
Just to clarify - I take it that if i posted on my (mostly dormant) twitter account that Kanye is a whole new level of asshole with his comments about slavery, the writer would prefer I just stayed silent. I dont think thats me jumping into others conversations.
djchump wrote:What about it? That's not what the article said. At all. That whole bit about "feel free to chat to all your white friends about it, but don't expect a bunch of black people you don't know to be welcoming if you rock up and start giving them your tuppence worth". Plus, the general idea that I should be able to give my opinion to anyone on anything seems kind of entitled IMHO - in the same way I found it enlightening to hear Coates' reasoning behind why, actually, the n word just isn't for me, because not everything is for me: https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/9/16627900/ta-nehisi-coates-n-wordRedDave2 wrote:... Regarding the pub analogy though, what if I am at one table discussing the Kanye issue with my friends and someone from another table taps me on the shoulder and says "you aren't allowed to talk about that". ...
Has that happened? I doubt anyone has walked up to you and told you to "shut it, whitey". Even the article doesn't say that, so you can drop that whole line of reasoning if you like. It's starting to sound overly defensive IMHO.RedDave2 wrote:Regarding your quote from the article - I'm not talking about me going up to the black folk, I'm talking about them coming up to me.What about it? That's not what the article said. At all. That whole bit about "feel free to chat to all your white friends about it, but don't expect a bunch of black people you don't know to be welcoming if you rock up and start giving them your tuppence worth". Plus, the general idea that I should be able to give my opinion to anyone on anything seems kind of entitled IMHO - in the same way I found it enlightening to hear Coates' reasoning behind why, actually, the n word just isn't for me, because not everything is for me: https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/9/16627900/ta-nehisi-coates-n-word... Regarding the pub analogy though, what if I am at one table discussing the Kanye issue with my friends and someone from another table taps me on the shoulder and says "you aren't allowed to talk about that". ...
If a bunch of Syrians are chatting about how fucked up Syria is, I'm not about to start butting in to their conversation, even if it's to nod and agree. Just seems rude to me.RedDave2 wrote:In terms of expressing your opinion - well this works both ways? Should we as europeans be silent on trump? on syria?
/shrugRedDave2 wrote:In a nutshell - if someone expresses an opinion you have a right to tell them their wrong.
I really don't care what you do. Feel free to tweet whatever you want at whoever you want. That's the main reason I don't use fucking twitter.RedDave2 wrote:I dont think you have a clear cut right to tell them to be quiet especially because of their race. Recently when the Black Panther movie was released in China, there was a huge amount of racist comments from the Chinese over the Black-centric cast. Even with other films, Black actors can suffer reduced roles to appease the Chinese market. I'm not Chinese so can I comment to a Chinese person about this, or post a comment on twitter? The WWE did a big event in Saudi Arabi and bowed to requests to feature no women in any way despite being on their biggest push for women ever. They even left a Canadian wrestler of Syrian decent off the show. Should I not be allowed comment on that even though I am not american, saudi, or female (or a wrestler)?
Yossarian wrote:You keep on stripping this down to ‘am I allowed to express an opinion to minority X about this?’ which is an oversimplification of the article. Taking your BP example, if there was a conversation between Chinese anti-racist activists about the reception of BP and how to deal with it, do you think you’d have much wisdom that you can jump in to impart there? Were a group of Saudi women discussing the pressures they face at home, would you jump in there? The argument isn’t ‘you aren’t allowed to comment’ or even, ‘you aren’t allowed to comment to minority X’, it’s about choosing the best place to express those opinions rather than using the opportunity to try and teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.
djchump wrote:Has that happened? I doubt anyone has walked up to you and told you to "shut it, whitey". Even the article doesn't say that, so you can drop that whole line of reasoning if you like. It's starting to sound overly defensive IMHO.
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