Politics of the Free - It’s because Democrats, stupid. - The Bear and Badger

poprock

Yossarian wrote:

Actually, fuck a monument, perhaps a nobel peace prize is more fitting?

No, we should give the Nobel prize to Trump because it happened in this thread, which is largely about him.

Unlikely

Shut it, whitey.

EDIT: Yoss.

djchump

RedDave2 wrote:

... The second time was a conversation with a friend of a friend who was a black american and the issue of appropriation came up. I joked how come white people cant withold the likes of iphones and MS windows as these came from white culture, or the 3 piece suit, or (relevant to me) St Patricks day? It was a bit of a poor joke comment I admit but the patricks day comment is valid but instead of any type of comment back I was simply told I was white and should not comment on appropriation as I dont get it. End conversation. Que awkward silence.

Maybe the above dont fit into this comment in the way I thought, but thats my experience.

Well, no - IMHO the above example fits perfectly with what the article was talking about. You kinda misjudged a jokey comment and offended the other person. If it had been a close friend of yours, you probably would have been able to judge much better how the comment/joke would land, but you didn't know them that well and they didn't appreciate it.

As a white brit, I really have no concept of how it'd feel to grow up black in america, with all that history of racism and struggles. So, yeah, I wouldn't see it my place to comment. YMMV, obviously, but the article might shed some light on why your joke/comment didn't go down so well.

Gremill

Rudy Giuliani - the gift that keeps on giving. Don’t think he’ll be on Trumps legal team much longer.

JonB

I think that article is kind of a nothing really. It’s trying to tap into a current vibe, which I think is often valid, about who is best placed to speak about certain issues, and about white (or male) entitlement, but applies it to a pretty trivial subject. Don’t join in the Kanye pisstaking – OK, whatever.

From my, admittedly honky, view, it's clear that many black people are sick of having to explain their experiences to white people, or having to include white people’s opinions about those experiences, or dealing with #notallwhitepeople arguments. It’s got to get tired feeling like every argument has to be filtered through the dominant white perspective, so why not have a blacks-only conversation where you can just get on with discussing the issue among people who are directly affected by it? But is it necessary or even useful to apply that everywhere?

RedDave2

djchump wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

... The second time was a conversation with a friend of a friend who was a black american and the issue of appropriation came up. I joked how come white people cant withold the likes of iphones and MS windows as these came from white culture, or the 3 piece suit, or (relevant to me) St Patricks day? It was a bit of a poor joke comment I admit but the patricks day comment is valid but instead of any type of comment back I was simply told I was white and should not comment on appropriation as I dont get it. End conversation. Que awkward silence.

Maybe the above dont fit into this comment in the way I thought, but thats my experience.

Well, no - IMHO the above example fits perfectly with what the article was talking about. You kinda misjudged a jokey comment and offended the other person. If it had been a close friend of yours, you probably would have been able to judge much better how the comment/joke would land, but you didn't know them that well and they didn't appreciate it.

As a white brit, I really have no concept of how it'd feel to grow up black in america, with all that history of racism and struggles. So, yeah, I wouldn't see it my place to comment. YMMV, obviously, but the article might shed some light on why your joke/comment didn't go down so well.

It's not the joke not going down well. Its the slam the door shut and that's it I have a problem with. Incidently the conversation had started with white people appropriating the dread lock Rasta style hair. To the best of my knowledge dreadlocks are not exclusive to black culture so that was the angle I was coming from. (And hence why is it ok for other cultures to adopt the English three piece suit or celebrate st. Patrick's day while a white person can't have dreadlocks)

GooberTheHat

On the topic of appropriation, surely culture doesn't suffer by adoption by outsiders, but by oppression by those in power? Surely the adoption by others only strengthens culture?

djchump

RedDave2 wrote:

It's not the joke not going down well. Its the slam the door shut and that's it I have a problem with. ...

Well, I'm not gonna be able to shed any light on why that person shut you down like that. You'd have to ask them. Or someone who feels the same way that they do.

Of course, they'd be under no particular obligation to explain themselves/their actions/their opinion to you either, and it might be one of those "until you've walked a mile in my shoes/lived the life I've lived, you're not really going to understand how it feels" situations.

pantyfire

Is not any discussion on twitter public?

RedDave2

GooberTheHat wrote:

On the topic of appropriation, surely culture doesn't suffer by adoption by outsiders, but by oppression by those in power? Surely the adoption by others only strengthens culture?

I'm a bit iffy to be honest and I was doing a little shit stirring in the above example. I kinda understand the resistance to cultural appropriation. I'm not 100% in agreement with it but I think I get and agree with the anger behind it.

@chump - She may have meant that but that's not what she said. If I used the response of "well you're Black so shut up" to a coloured person when discussing the treatment of migrant Irish in america and Britain would that be acceptable? I don't think so and I don't think the terrible actions of the past excuse it either.

I actually heard an acquaintance (cant call him a friend, but one of my friends does so we occasionally run in the same circles) use the same argument to a very cordial English man on a topic about the north. Only in a far more nasty manner. The guy wasn't being aggressive or adversarial just throwing in his experience from actually working up north and knowing about the culture verses my... colleague... who had lived in Dublin all his life.

Anyway, Kanyes a prick and this is all his fault. Still like the first 2 albums though.

Yossarian

JonB wrote:

I think that article is kind of a nothing really. It’s trying to tap into a current vibe, which I think is often valid, about who is best placed to speak about certain issues, and about white (or male) entitlement, but applies it to a pretty trivial subject. Don’t join in the Kanye pisstaking – OK, whatever.

From my, admittedly honky, view, it's clear that many black people are sick of having to explain their experiences to white people, or having to include white people’s opinions about those experiences, or dealing with #notallwhitepeople arguments. It’s got to get tired feeling like every argument has to be filtered through the dominant white perspective, so why not have a blacks-only conversation where you can just get on with discussing the issue among people who are directly affected by it? But is it necessary or even useful to apply that everywhere?

I think this is an important point to consider here too, especially in regards to conversations on Twitter where anyone can chime in on a conversation at any time with their own take on things.

Brooks

pantyfire wrote:

Is not any discussion on twitter public?

Yes and this is the problem. It's why the whole "don't @ me" thing has come to exist.

Brooks

I really hope Twitter run out of dough soon. There's some fun to be had on it but it's not worth the shite.

Yossarian

If I used the response of "well you're Black so shut up" to a coloured person when discussing the treatment of migrant Irish in america and Britain would that be acceptable?

Not unless you were talking about sunburn. Saying you’re not Irish so shut up may have been.

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

If I used the response of "well you're Black so shut up" to a coloured person when discussing the treatment of migrant Irish in america and Britain would that be acceptable?

Not unless you were talking about sunburn. Saying you’re not Irish so shut up may have been.

But that wasnt her response guys. She didnt say well you are not black so yadda yadda. If the phrase doesnt work one way, it shouldnt be allowed go the other.

[Deleted User]

GooberTheHat wrote:

On the topic of appropriation, surely culture doesn't suffer by adoption by outsiders, but by oppression by those in power? Surely the adoption by others only strengthens culture?

I think the issue arises from the cherry picking from cultures, taking the bits they fancy and not taking the time to understand the what and why.

If a white person wanted to convert to Islam that is fine, if a white person decided accessorizing swimwear with Hijabs, not so fine.

djchump

RedDave2 wrote:

If the phrase doesnt work one way, it shouldnt be allowed go the other.

Lots of things in life are 1-way.

Yossarian

RedDave2 wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

If I used the response of "well you're Black so shut up" to a coloured person when discussing the treatment of migrant Irish in america and Britain would that be acceptable?

Not unless you were talking about sunburn. Saying you’re not Irish so shut up may have been.

But that wasnt her response guys. She didnt say well you are not black so yadda yadda. If the phrase doesnt work one way, it shouldnt be allowed go the other.

I provided an example of how it could work the other way.

RedDave2

djchump wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

If the phrase doesnt work one way, it shouldnt be allowed go the other.

Lots of things in life are 1-way.

In this specific instance I think that's, and no offence, bullshit. It's a comment that lacks respect for the other person and I believe if we use that type of phraseology when talking to each other we are just going to make things worse.

Tempy

I found a really good tweet thread or article once on cultural appropriation, the gist was the term is not a net negative term and you can appropriate cultures in non-harmful ways quite easily and quite respectfully but you are still appropriating the culture, which has to be considered. They suggested, for example, games that deal with Native American stuff might want to get actually Native Americans involved as part of their team's and research, instead of relying on second-hand stuff, that way appropriating beliefs and symbols can be done respectfully and informatively in the way someone wearing a feathered headdress to Coachella is not. I found that useful.

GooberTheHat

Liveinadive wrote:

GooberTheHat wrote:

On the topic of appropriation, surely culture doesn't suffer by adoption by outsiders, but by oppression by those in power? Surely the adoption by others only strengthens culture?

I think the issue arises from the cherry picking from cultures, taking the bits they fancy and not taking the time to understand the what and why.

If a white person wanted to convert to Islam that is fine, if a white person decided accessorizing swimwear with Hijabs, not so fine.

Why not, wouldn't that make it less difficult for Muslims to wear Hijabs if they become a social norm?

GooberTheHat

Tempy wrote:

I found a really good tweet thread or article once on cultural appropriation, the gist was the term is not a net negative term and you can appropriate cultures in non-harmful ways quite easily and quite respectfully but you are still appropriating the culture, which has to be considered. They suggested, for example, games that deal with Native American stuff might want to get actually Native Americans involved as part of their team's and research, instead of relying on second-hand stuff, that way appropriating beliefs and symbols can be done respectfully and informatively in the way someone wearing a feathered headdress to Coachella is not. I found that useful.

Yeah, I can see the sense in that.

Yossarian

WTAF

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/991357054030897153

Tempy

All of this stuff gets the gut reaction of "egalitarianism!" and "it shouldn't matter!" that can only come from the inculcated beliefs we have from our position of incredible cultural privilege. As ever, equity not equality is the way forward, and feeling a little resistant or uncomfortable is fine. It's 50 years since radicals were demanding the canon of Western literature be torn down and diversified and everyone is still studying the same books. We just get a bit of Achebe on the side now. It's why the attack on Western culture propagated by the right is so pathetic, there's been almost no change.

RedDave2

GooberTheHat wrote:

Liveinadive wrote:

GooberTheHat wrote:

On the topic of appropriation, surely culture doesn't suffer by adoption by outsiders, but by oppression by those in power? Surely the adoption by others only strengthens culture?

I think the issue arises from the cherry picking from cultures, taking the bits they fancy and not taking the time to understand the what and why.

If a white person wanted to convert to Islam that is fine, if a white person decided accessorizing swimwear with Hijabs, not so fine.

Why not, wouldn't that make it less difficult for Muslims to wear Hijabs if they become a social norm?

Yes , but it's also a religious thing isn't it? To me that's not quite the same as adopting a popular dish or music style.

It's overall a weird line but I would be fine with someone converting to Islam and using the hijab as intended over someone using it for a purpose it wasn't intended (in this case a fashion accesorie)

GooberTheHat

I was playing devil's advocate to a degree.

Yossarian

How dare you appropriate satanism in this way.

Tempy

The key to what people class as "hysteria" from the left is understand it's usually not them being hysterical. It's general one person's opinion being mapped onto an entire spectrum. Some femisinst somewhwre says she doesn't believe in gender than you get a thousand Right Wing Youtubers crowing about "how can there be all of these genders if feminists believe they don't exist?!?! Feminism has been destroyed by Chad of Cambodia!"

These exaggerated left wing beliefs generally have a kernel of truth to them, just like the article that started this whole back and forth off.

RedDave2

My wife just summed up my problem after ibgave her a brief run down on the conversation here. Not sure if it's just me or a white thing but her response was:

"Yeah but you don't need an opinion on everything. Sometimes it might be better to listen and nothing more"

*mutters*

Tempy

You're saying this to someone who kept posting after they said they didn't really feel qualified to carry on

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