Brexit: The Final Countdown! (or is it?)
  • Billy wrote:
    for what it's worth i'm enjoying the debate here.

    Aye, me too. I’m learning things about the world from both sides of the discussion.

    Even if Cinty’s had enough and decided it’s time to flounce, I’m glad he posted so much beforehand. Some perspective there I wouldn’t read anywhere else.
  • It's a Comfortable space for uncritical pro eu ers.
  • It's a Comfortable space for uncritical pro eu ers.
    Let us know when one shows up.
  • Kow
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    Britain can still function fine outside of the EU, there are plenty of trading groups inside Europe which don't necessitate being part of the Union. But excluding yourself from participation in the forming of trade agreements with your principle trading partners is a tad silly really.
  • Ah well that's a shame (CiT leaving the thread). I think that there is a bit of trolling / obtuseness about the points being made re: the make-up of the typical person who wants to vote out.

    Whether you think they're idiots or misguided or whatever, dismissing their views gets you nowhere, and the other point that the pro-EU campaign runners are scaremongering fuck wits, stands absolute.

    It may be worth pointing out that Cint's electoral figures obviously refer only to people who voted, and not the entire electorate (which is what I think Yoss meant when he was saying there are more "left wing" people in the country. If only the self-satisfied champagne socialists and unkempt hippies and lazy students actually bothered to vote, eh?).

    An interesting point came up earlier re: the demonisation of Turkey's acceptance into the "club". I have had the pleasure, over the past few years, of getting to know the country much better than before. Erdogan is a thin-skinned authoritarian demagogue, a thug who locks up people for perceived insults, a narcissist who sanctions the building of a 100 bathroom palace whilst half his country lives in poverty, who abuses his power and has huge influence over the judiciary (c/f: the recent order by the courts here to place a popular opposition paper into "administration"). Not bringing these things to the attention of the wider EU public would be irresponsible.

    But, is he any worse than the governments in Poland, Hungary, Slovakia? Or how about Berlusconi? Erdogan bombs Kurds and we bomb Syrians thanks for LABOUR MPs voting for it.

    Not sure what point I'm making. Turkey seems an OK sort of place that would benefit a lot from EU membership, and we could certainly do with broadening the make-up of the EU and bringing serious manufacturing clout to the club. EU membership would also impose the same rules re: good governance which could deal with the Erdogan problem. Let 'em in I say.
  • Funkstain wrote:
    Ah well that's a shame (CiT leaving the thread). I think that there is a bit of trolling / obtuseness about the points being made re: the make-up of the typical person who wants to vote out. 
    I'm not trolling or being obtuse, I just don't really give a fuck. I stand by everything I've said, even the stuff said in jest, even the comment about "spite vote".
    Funkstain wrote:
    Whether you think they're idiots or misguided or whatever, dismissing their views gets you nowhere,
    Yeah, I know, but I'm not trying to *get* anywhere. Call it apathy but I just don't give a fuck about politics anymore because there's piss all any of us can do beyond throw votes where we feel. Even if I figured I do care enough to completely change my life, try to become an MP and try to get into a position of influence and try to make an iota of a difference, it'd amount to fuck all of fuck all. We'd still be bombing foreign parts then demonising the civilians fleeing the horror and slaughter. 
    So, if you don't laugh you'll cry, so I'm choosing to laugh at the blind, dumb cruelty of it all that dooms humans to eat varying levels of shit purely due to the accident of where and when they were born.

    Our karma means we (or the next generation) will reap what we sow, and if we sow division and hate it'll come round to bite us in the arse eventually. Same with stuff like not investing in education etc - without a course-correct it'll damage the country eventually to the point where things turn shitty enough that people might wake up enough and kick up enough of a stink to do something about it. Til then, wave goodbye to the NHS and start saving your pennies cos in 30 years time when you have a heart attack you'll be paying through the nose for treatment! Fun times!
    Funkstain wrote:
    and the other point that the pro-EU campaign runners are scaremongering fuck wits, stands absolute.
    For sure, but that's politics in general right now (at least what I see of it in the UK) - scaremongering FUD on all sides, because fear is an easy sell and self-perpetuates.
  • GooberTheHat
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    I didn't intend for this thread to be a smug, self satisfied, echo chamber. I am very interested in hearing every side of argument, and we are not going to get that if we feel the need to attack those (either in this thread, or the wider population in general) who proffer a different point of view and a different opinion to our own.

    Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The more you attack someone for the opinions they hold, the more they will defend that position and entrench it. If you want to refute a point that is being made, please engage with the person making it and point out the flaws in their argument.

    If you aren’t interested in engaging with them, don’t give a fuck or aren’t trying to get anywhere, then be aware that you are probably acting like a dick and aren’t being particularly constructive when you post in here.

    I understand it’s an emotive subject, but if you can try and leave your emotions at the door, and discuss the facts, as you understand them, as rationally and objectively as possible, it will be a much better and beneficial experience for everyone (well, most of us).

    Cheers
  • Yossarian
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    *entrenches dickishness*
  • Oh wow have you told your girlfriend yet Yoss? Hope she's not too upset
  • Funkstain wrote:
    An interesting point came up earlier re: the demonisation of Turkey's acceptance into the "club". I have had the pleasure, over the past few years, of getting to know the country much better than before. Erdogan is a thin-skinned authoritarian demagogue, a thug who locks up people for perceived insults, a narcissist who sanctions the building of a 100 bathroom palace whilst half his country lives in poverty, who abuses his power and has huge influence over the judiciary (c/f: the recent order by the courts here to place a popular opposition paper into "administration"). Not bringing these things to the attention of the wider EU public would be irresponsible.

    But, is he any worse than the governments in Poland, Hungary, Slovakia? Or how about Berlusconi? Erdogan bombs Kurds and we bomb Syrians thanks for LABOUR MPs voting for it. Not sure what point I'm making.

    Turkey seems an OK sort of place that would benefit a lot from EU membership, and we could certainly do with broadening the make-up of the EU and bringing serious manufacturing clout to the club. EU membership would also impose the same rules re: good governance which could deal with the Erdogan problem. Let 'em in I say.

    Since it's me that brought up Turkey, I'll explain exactly what I was getting at. No, Turkey isn't really that much worse than some governments of those already in the club. By them getting in the club though, they would be curbed simply by the entrance criteria.

    However, given the entrance criteria, they are currently light years away from meeting it. UKIP claim they will be in by 2020. In reality, Turkey are nowhere near meeting the requirements for EU membership. Of the 33 areas, they are thus far meeting just one. In all likelihood, it will be 10 or 20 years before it is able to meet the criteria, and then it needs unanimous agreement from the EU states for them to join. By the time it joins, it will be a completely different country.

    The arguments against them joining though were given as 'They aren't Christian' (neither am I), they teach loads of their kids in Islamic schools (The UK teaches twice as many in faith schools at secondary level, the vast majority of which are C of E or Roman Catholic. The numbers jump higher for Primary Schools), they'll get the maximum number of MEP's because of their huge population (possible, but highly unlikely as they aren't determined solely by population size), 15 million of them could leave for the EU in the first 10 years (this is EU, not UK, and as such doesn't actually affect us as much. However, it's a figure plucked out of thin air, the actual estimates are somewhere between 500,00 and 4.4 million, which could be mitigated by introducing transitional controls, but taking it at face value undermines the previous point about MEP's).

    Plus there is the EDL style moans about the introduction of Sharia Law (usually termed Muslamic Law), which is total bollocks. The Out side are no strangers to using fear in their arguments, and I see no reason not the be able to call this out. I think Cinty is confusing calling out bullshit arguments based on ignorance and hate with saying that all arguments for out are based on ignorance and hate.
  • With the Tories underfunding the social infrastructure, it may come as no surprise I would be unhappy at an economic migration between 500,00 and 4.4 million in addition to the already high figure 300,000 per annum. 

    Probably an unpopular view around these parts but there it is.
    retroking1981: Fuck this place I'm off to the pub.
  • GooberTheHat
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    That's EU wide though hair, not UK bound.  Also, EU immigrants actually contribute more in tax than they claim in benefits/tax breaks.  They are a net + for the UK GDP.
  • I'll dial back my earlier comments re Outers all being big racists. Personally I was just on about them, the other people, not anyone on this forum. So if there's anyone who was offended, my apologies. I stand by the general sentiment that concealed racism is a lot to do with many people's opinions about it but I would have been more diplomatic if I'd stopped to think there were some dirty, Tory, anti-EU right wingers here on the forum, posting away, bold as brass.
  • djchump wrote:
    I figure if we can afford to pay for the bombs that fuck a country up, we can easily afford to pay for the food and housing and shelter for the refugees fleeing the fuckedness, cos bombs are hella expensive.

    The money spent on bombs and missiles goes into the pockets of the people who matter, American multinationals, the already obscenely wealthy and those at the top. Once they've got their money, and America/the West/'The Free World' has got it's desired regime change or it's geo-political aim has been achieved it doesn't matter about the dead, the starving, the wrecked cities or the ensuing migrant crisises, or the terrorists and criminals that spring up under such conditions (we might be able to fund those terrorists and use them to get what we want one day after all). That's someone else's problem.

    This is basic. Foreign Policy 101.

    Charities or some shit deals with all the mess left afterwards.
  • With the Tories underfunding the social infrastructure, it may come as no surprise I would be unhappy at an economic migration between 500,00 and 4.4 million in addition to the already high figure 300,000 per annum. 

    Probably an unpopular view around these parts but there it is.

    Not unpopular. Interesting. I don't see any Young Turk coming along stealing my job but that (possibly misplaced) confidence blinds me to genuine concerns that others, who have jobs possibly more susceptible to competition from economic migrants, can and should have.

    Keep it up please, I am out of step with a lot of people on this country and their is more to it than amateur economics, petty racism and false alarms.
  • That's EU wide though hair, not UK bound.  Also, EU immigrants actually contribute more in tax than they claim in benefits/tax breaks.  They are a net + for the UK GDP.

    That's if they are employed, it's not beyond belief there are tens of thousands of young men looking for work that isnt there.  Who benefits out of an oversubscribed workforce?
    retroking1981: Fuck this place I'm off to the pub.
  • Yossarian
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    With our aging population we'd be fucked without immigration.
  • The fears are justified in one way, in that standards of living seem to be falling, wages stagnating or barely rising, the ambitions of young Brits are diminished to the point where house ownership seems but a futile dream, people regularly need assistance from benefits to supplement their wages....

    And then people see alot more immigrants and foreign nationals in Britain than they did in years gone by. Easy to put two and two together and see one as the cause of the other.

    Personally I think it's misguided to blame immigrants for all the problems facing (mainly young, white, working class) Brits. But I doubt that our government cares about those people anyway, they may vote Labour after all.

    In years gone by they'd have had relatively secure industry jobs and Unions that fought to protect them and stand up for their rights. But the Tories robbed them of both, then via their press barons, pointed them in the direction of the immigrants and said: "Look! Over there, that's who to blame, those fucking immigrants, they've stolen your jobs, this used to be a land of opportunity but not anymore..."

    But then that world of industry and Unionisation is gone now and it ain't coming back, so it's a pointless argument in the here and now. I just wanted to make it anyway, to point out again the many ways in which Conservatism has failed this country.

    These problems are all more to do with globalisation, big business, years of government policy and the desires of companies for cheap, exploitable Labour.

    But then I would say that, I'm horribly biased.

    It just depends on your point of view, in Daily Mail land the immigrants are the designated scapegoats. Personally I'd say it's more complicated and that the jobs taken by immigrants are more often the shitty ones that no one wanted in the first place (in my experience, not saying it's definitely so).

    Certainly leaving Eastern Europe (or wherever) and your family due to lack of opportunity at home, travelling all the way here then slaving away as our low skilled workers, nurses, care workers, cash-in-hand builders or even our prostitutes and drug mule's can't be quite the pleasurable, no-effort doss that the Mail seems to think it is.
  • GooberTheHat
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    That's EU wide though hair, not UK bound.  Also, EU immigrants actually contribute more in tax than they claim in benefits/tax breaks.  They are a net + for the UK GDP.
    That's if they are employed, it's not beyond belief there are tens of thousands of young men looking for work that isnt there.  Who benefits out of an oversubscribed workforce?

    That hasn't happened in the past, and there is no reason to presume it will happen in the future.  Immigrants from the EU tend to be more likely to find work than the average UK citizen (because they tend to be of a working age).

    The image below shows estimated levels of national debt at varying levels of immigration.  The scariest line for me is the one that shows 0 immigration.

    http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160308/mj77g93w.jpg
  • Then we have nothing to worry about.
    retroking1981: Fuck this place I'm off to the pub.
  • Funkstain wrote:
    Other countries do so much more it's shockingly embarrassing. Germany are taking in millions, and much of their media is remains broadly supportive, whilst acknowledging the pressures and the tolls. If other EU countries did even a tenth of what Germany are doing there would be no "refugee problem".
    I don't think this is true. In my lifetime there will always be more people outside Europe with lower quality of life than those inside Europe. Not all of them will want to travel but there will always be war, oppression, famine, flood, earthquake and drought to flee from as well as economic reasons.
    "..the pseudo-Left new style.."
  • Yossarian wrote:
    With our aging population we'd be fucked without immigration.
    Unless the birth rate goes up.
    "..the pseudo-Left new style.."
  • I don't think he's saying there would be no refugees, but there would be no crisis as we have now, because they would have been relocated rather than all being in Greece.
  • Which bit isn't true? Refugees, predominantly Syrians but with a fair few Afghans, are fleeing conflict zones which we've apparently done our best to enworsen.

    They are getting to Turkey and dying in desperate attempts to reach the EU in which they believe they may find a better life for their families.

    Germany, amongst other countries, feel a responsibility to those suffering and are trying to find ways to accommodate them.

    Other countries, notably rich ones like ours, are doing everything they can to avoid taking any responsibility for those suffering.

    I find this embarrassing.

    This all, at first glance, appears true to me.
  • IanHamlett wrote:
    Yossarian wrote:
    With our aging population we'd be fucked without immigration.
    Unless the birth rate goes up.

    Or we invent food replicators and enter a post scarcity world

    or fusion energy finally goes mainstream and I get my flying car
  • djchump wrote:
    "Spite vote" kinda sums up brexit, IMHO.
    ...Jesus... I'm fucking done with this thread, it's not good for me. Enjoy yourself lads - feel free to continue to find articles about topics you know nothing about but that support your viewpoint so that you can repost and nod in agreement about them, knowing you're all completely right and there's no reasonable way any not-idiotic human could disagree with you.
    Typical racism from Cinty there.
    "..the pseudo-Left new style.."
  • Funkstain wrote:
    Which bit isn't true? Refugees, predominantly Syrians but with a fair few Afghans, are fleeing conflict zones which we've apparently done our best to enworsen.
    Last time I saw figures, Syrians were a minority. The largest minority but still a minority. You might see an attempt to enworsen Syria, but there's nothing in that for the EU. I see an attempt to stabilise the country so that Syrians can live there safely.
    Funkstain wrote:
    Other countries, notably rich ones like ours, are doing everything they can to avoid taking any responsibility for those suffering. I find this embarrassing. This all, at first glance, appears true to me.
    I would like the UK to take more refugees, and I would like Germany to take refugees directly from Syria, but the UK is spending more on Syrian aid than any other EU country and trying to stabilise the country militarily. Maybe not the best strategy, but Syrians aren't fleeing British bombs.

    So that's probably about half true, but the bit I was saying wasn't true was that the migrant crisis would be solved if more countries took more people.
    "..the pseudo-Left new style.."
  • I fink da UK shud #brexit aha LOL
    Gamertard: Laddergoat       PSN: HMV
  • The best argument for leaving I've heard so far is so we can hear Nicola Sturgeon argue that Scotland is better apart from England but better together in the EU.
    "..the pseudo-Left new style.."
  • acemuzzy
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    THE QUEEN IS PRO BREXIT

    So that's one more reason to stay

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