Brexit: The Final Countdown! (or is it?)
  • I fucking hate Boris, not as a dinner guest, he seems like a laugh, but I hate just call me Dave Webcameron more.
    "..the pseudo-Left new style.."
  • Both ares so far down the spectrum there is little point comparing. Hate the pair of the them.
  • I guess Boris is most likely to shit himself on TV (literally) so holds attention that bit longer.
  • I've started hating Boris a lot more since this obvious ploy, but I still hate Dave even more.
    "..the pseudo-Left new style.."
  • It's like picking out of two games you don't want that scored a meta critic of 26 and34
  • The thing that I like about Cameron's stance is that it is typically tory.
    He is in the European but on his(our, I guess) terms.

    I'm sure I said before but happy to repeat.
    I don't agree with most of Cameron's policies but his stance in EU gives us the strongest advantage.

    We pick and choose the best of the EU but keep enough of a distance that it doesn't hinder us.

    We have to stay in the EU to exploit this scenario.

    Fuck it, stay at the shit party, eat all the nibbles, drink all the beers, take the piss until we are thrown out.
    We are an EU super power, we can take those pisses.
    That is about right wing as I get, I just can't contemplate why anyone would want to leave our exploitative gravy train. Unless they are thick(and not in the meaning Black women have taken it back).
  • Yossarian
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    I hate Cameron more than Johnson simply because of how much more effective the former has been at making life shitter for the rest of us.
  • Cameron is a stooge. He always fucks it when actually challenged.
  • Yes he is a nob but imagine what Corby could do at the same arms length position.

    If we leave now a future left wing leader will be out as well.
  • The Left Case for Brexit
    An uncommitted reader of the British press would rapidly conclude that, on the issue of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union, there is an easily-drawn dividing line. Those who favour withdrawal are on the right in political terms; those who would retain membership are on the left.

    Readers of the centre-left or liberal press would go further; coverage of the issue would suggest that the supporters of Brexit are not only right-wing, but ignorant, prejudiced, xenophobic, or just plain deranged. The possibility that there is a perfectly rational and moderate case for reconsidering our future in Europe, a case that is not only consistent with a left-of-centre stance but actually required by it, is overlooked. The debate is all the poorer for it.

    My own involvement with this issue goes back a long way. As a new recruit to the Foreign Office in 1964, I worked on Common Market issues and later, from our Brussels embassy, I helped to organise the Wilson-Brown tour of Common Market capitals as part of a further attempt to have the Gaullist veto on our membership lifted.

    By the time I returned to the UK in 1968, I was clear that the issue was not whether we should or could be part of Europe, since no one could doubt that we were historically, geographically, culturally, politically, and inevitably, an integral part of that entity, however defined. The question was not whether, but what kind of Europe?

    I came to the realisation that what we were offered was not “Europe” but a Franco-German deal guaranteeing free trade in manufactures to the Germans in return for subsidised agriculture to suit the French.

    Joining “Europe” in 1972 represented for Britain a restriction of our trading opportunities and an abandonment of a rational and long-established trading pattern. It meant, through the Common Agricultural Policy, to whose costs Britain was and remains a major contributor, a substantial increase in food prices and therefore in domestic costs, making British manufactured goods more expensive. It also meant an end to preferential markets beyond Europe, and opened us up instead to direct competition from more efficient manufacturing rivals in a single European marketplace.

    But have we not derived great advantage from our trade with the EU? Well, hardly. Let us put to one side the very large annual contribution we pay to the EU (a continuing burden, as it happens, on our balance of payments). We have now run a trade deficit every year since 1982, which was just as the full impact of EU membership took effect – not just a coincidence, since the greater part of that deficit is with the other members of the EU, and much of it arises in the trade in manufactured goods.

    The result is that our manufacturing sector has shrivelled away, and our net investment in new manufacturing capacity is virtually nil. We are of course solemnly warned that our EU partners will refuse to trade with us if we insist on a different and better Europe; but are they really going to turn their backs on a one-sided trade relationship that has been so much to their advantage?

    The weakness of the case for continuing membership of the current arrangement is shown by the fact that it is almost always articulated in terms of rival pessimisms; we are constantly told that the burdens of membership are outweighed by the risks of being left out in the cold.

    But we should take courage from the lessons of experience. Similar arguments led us to join the European Monetary System, which proved disastrous, and were then repeated in respect of the euro. Most people in Britain will offer daily thanks that we had the courage to reject those arguments and to stay out of the euro, and there is no reason to suppose that they have any greater weight in the current debate. Our trading partners in Europe need us at least as much as we are said to need them, as post-Brexit negotiations would surely demonstrate.

    In any case, a decision in favour of Brexit would not mean, as is so often alleged, turning our backs on Europe. It would signal instead the opening of a new agenda, aimed at developing a better and more constructive Europe, and one with a greater chance of success.

    A new Europe would not operate, as it has done since its inception, as a manifestation of free-market capitalism, serving the interests of big business rather than those of ordinary people. It would not impose a policy of austerity in thrall to neo-classical economic doctrine. It would not run a hugely diverse economy in terms of a monetary policy that suits Germany but no one else. It would not impose a political structure decided by a small elite, but would allow the pace of cooperation and eventually integration to be decided by the people of Europe as they and we became more comfortable with the concept of a European identity.

    If we have the courage, we could, in other words, not only benefit ourselves but help the development of a Europe that truly does serve the people of Europe. That is surely a project to attract even the most enlightened of bien pensants.

    Bryan Gould

    17 March 2016
    http://www.bryangould.com/the-left-case-for-brexit/
  • Again though, if only there was a chance of having a national government in the foreseeable future that wasn't a shower of shits (or right-wing advocates of that same free market capitalism).
  • Well, yeah that's the problem. Leaving the EU only to be at the mercy of an even worse gang of twats isn't much of a choice.

    As has been said plenty of times, it's basically a choice between two outcomes no-one could really want or be too enthusiastic about unless they were a member of the Conservative Party (or UKIP), conducted under the narrowest of terms with both sides of the argument being essentially made-up of varying differing shades of the same right-wing, free-market, greedy, remorseless capitalist swine.

    But theoretically there would be a good case to be made for leaving the EU, one that didn't involve immigrants on benefits and EU banana straightening policy and all that other stuff. But it's irrelevant to make that point because the chances we'll ever see a government willing to acknowledge let alone do something about the inadequacies of the EU seem impossibly slim.

    But then this whole thing is just an exercise in moving Tory division and argument as far away from an Election period as possible, in the hope everyone will have forgotten the disharmony and in-fighting by the time an election comes around and they'll be properly focused on being scared about Labour (and it'll probably work).

    Still, food for thought, eh?
  • Indeed it is. I'm sticking with your conclusions however and have therefore yet to experience an argument to persuade me to vote leave.
  • I'm still almost certainly voting stay but close to the fence. I don't like the argument that the EU is good because it restricts out government and out government are twats. They are twats but I don't think adding more twats into that mix is the solution.
    "..the pseudo-Left new style.."
  • Yossarian
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    I say there are bigger twats in the world than our pols or EU pols, and they're the twats we want to be worried about.
  • beano
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    all the way home.

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    If Europe is currently more right winged now due to the successes of such parties, then why would a person inclined to favour left winged politics who is in a right winged country want to remain part of a collective that has a majority of right leaning governments?

    That's a sticking point. It's unfortunate that now is not the best time for this.

    I think we missed a lot of chances in 2008 due to social darwinism having its hooks in the minds of workers.
    "Better than a tech demo. But mostly a tech demo for now. Exactly what we expected, crashes less and less. No multiplayer."
    - BnB NMS review, PS4, PC
  • Escape
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    LarryDavid wrote:
    But it's irrelevant to make that point because the chances we'll ever see a government willing to acknowledge let alone do something about the inadequacies of the EU seem impossibly slim.
    The result is that our manufacturing sector has shrivelled away, and our net investment in new manufacturing capacity is virtually nil.

    As leaps of faith go, I'd certainly be more tempted with Corbyn at the wheel.

    Line_s_Final.png
  • acemuzzy
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    "The prime minister promised Parliament that no taxpayers' money would be spent promoting Remain or Leave," he said.

    £9m taxpayer money being spent on leaflets then.

    It seeming a rather uneven playing field is actually by bigger worry. And Cameron's smugness when he wins.
  • Yossarian
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    I found that unexpectedly touching. Click the images for a bit more info.
  • "Don't throw it the baby with th bath water"

    Sums it up for me.
  • Yossarian
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    The Leave campaign's planned music festival is running into trouble: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/sigma-have-nobody-to-love-eu#.pxxEKrbxV
  • Yossarian wrote:
    The Leave campaign's planned music festival is running into trouble: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/sigma-have-nobody-to-love-eu#.pxxEKrbxV
    Phats & Small did not respond to a request for comment, meaning their views on whether the UK would be able to survive on its own as a secure and independent trading nation outside the EU following a period of treaty renegotiation remain unknown.
  • IanHamlett wrote:
    I fucking hate Boris

    WTF have I done now??
  • Sorry, but you're objectionable in every conceivable way.

    I thought that's what you were going for.
    "..the pseudo-Left new style.."
  • Kow
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    You have numbers in your name. We all hate you.
  • Oh that's fine then @Ian

    Fuck you @Kow
  • Kow
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    You're not helping your case.

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