Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers - The Bear and Badger

Yossarian

Unleavely.

b0r1s

I'm still none the wiser. If only there was a really well produced leaflet telling me the pros and cons of leaving the EU.

acemuzzy

£4k per house per year to leave, according to the government.

Hmm...

[Deleted User]

I'm struggling to find any argument to leave that doesn't involve xenophobia.

IanHamlett

They're mainly to do with the UK being able to set its own trade deals, keeping the billions it would send to the EU, and decisions being made locally by democratically elected representatives instead of undemocratic EU institutions.

Or to the regressive left mind reader, cover stories for their bigotry.

Diluted Dante

There are plenty, they just do't seem to add up to me.

"We can negotiate a better deal alone, and do it in the 2 year withdrawal period!"

Oh, the mindless optimism card, great.

mistercrayon

I'd vote out of the EU if I wasn't so worried about the disintegration of co-operation between European countries, next step: war. Whatever brexiters say about the EU it's organisation has coincided with less wars between countries for the first time since Europe as a geographical area was a concept.

IanHamlett

They don't stand up too well for me either, apart from the undemocratic bit, but there's a long way between that and xenophobia.

GooberTheHat

I understand the desire to negotiate a better trade deal, but I've yet to see anything like a convincing argument as to how we could actually do that.

mistercrayon

Democracy in the EU is a real gutpunch for me. Even elected officials, imagine having even a tenth of the coverage they have that Jez Hunt is getting at this very second seems mindboggling.

Yossarian

The trade deal thing is a terrible argument that doesn't bear a minute's scrutiny. We're not a big enough market, nor do we have enough unique products, for trade deals that we strike on our own to be anything worthwhile for us.

mistercrayon

GooberTheHat wrote:

I understand the desire to negotiate a better trade deal, but I've yet to see anything like a convincing argument as to how we could actually do that.

Don't worry we'll have Cameron first at the table to negotiate.

Diluted Dante

GooberTheHat wrote:

I understand the desire to negotiate a better trade deal, but I've yet to see anything like a convincing argument as to how we could actually do that.

You should have more confidence in Britain. Don't worry about things like facts.

mistercrayon

Yossarian wrote:

The trade deal thing is a terrible argument that doesn't bear a minute's scrutiny. We're not a big enough market, nor do we have enough unique products, for trade deals that we strike on our own to be anything worthwhile for us.

Come on we could become an even better tax haven than Luxembourg!

GooberTheHat

mistercrayon wrote:

I'd vote out of the EU if I wasn't so worried about the disintegration of co-operation between European countries, next step: war. Whatever brexiters say about the EU it's organisation has coincided with less wars between countries for the first time since Europe as a geographical area was a concept.

This is a big one for me to. How long has the EU (or EEC) been a thing? I'd like to see a comparison of the number of people killed in wars between member states before and after the EU was established.

mistercrayon

I mean, to say Britain couldn't function as a nation out of the EU is bullshit. It won't be as cushy but I don't think british people would just collapse into a heap. This is the nation that spawned the industrial revolution (and shite workers conditions) but the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION was technologically cool.

Diluted Dante

It quite obviously could function, no one is saying it couldn't. But it would be worse off. Even where we can negotiate the same deal as we have now, which wouldn't apply for everything, we'd have to give up a lot in return, and have no say in how the EU is run.

Roujin

How many industries you think we can spawn now after successive governments since the 70's basically belittled manual skilled trades and industrial jobs, dismantled the unions and started getting schools to just turn out little office drones?

We couldn't even develop a graphene industry at which we were the global leader, despite inventing the shit out of it.

mistercrayon

It's arguable we have that much say. DC's excellent trip to Europe to negotiate the whole fucking thing was so watered down it was basically homeopathic. So when you put Britain on the table to the EU and the change amounts to nothing, you can see how perhaps the "being in the EU" doesn't convince a lot of people that it makes a lot of difference about what laws you can and cannot change.

(obvs we can block duties on Chinese steel dumping thoug')

mistercrayon

Roujin wrote:

How many industries you think we can spawn now after successive governments since the 70's basically belittled manual skilled trades and industrial jobs, dismantled the unions and started getting schools to just turn out little office drones? We couldn't even develop a graphene industry at which we were the global leader, despite inventing the shit out of it.

It's a mystery. It could very well be zero but things always need to be done and people are currently the best at doing things.

IanHamlett

There's a problem with pioneering business in Europe and I don't know if it's got anything to do with the EU.

The computer and web were invented by Brits, the Web was put together in a pan Europe science organisation, but Facebook, Google, eBay, PayPal, Amazon, Twitter, Yahoo, Netflix etc are from the US. Friends Reunited shut down a few months ago.

Why the fuck is this?

Diluted Dante

It depends entirely on what you try to negotiate though. Camerons aims were moronic, and are in no way representative of what changes can be made.

Yossarian

IanHamlett wrote:

There's a problem with pioneering business in Europe and I don't know if it's got anything to do with the EU.

The computer and web were invented by Brits, the Web was put together in a pan Europe science organisation, but Facebook, Google, eBay, PayPal, Amazon, Twitter, Yahoo, Netflix etc are from the US. Friends Reunited shut down a few months ago.

Why the fuck is this?

Spotify's doing alright, though.

mistercrayon

the internet was invented by the Americans tho'.

[Deleted User]

IanHamlett wrote:

They're mainly to do with the UK being able to set its own trade deals, keeping the billions it would send to the EU, and decisions being made locally by democratically elected representatives instead of undemocratic EU institutions.

Or to the regressive left mind reader, cover stories for their bigotry.

Yeah, Dorothy from Kent definitely has thought about trade deals and how a Brexit might change that.

Democratically elected is also a ridiculous argument. "At least they're OUR idiots." It's bollocks, idealistic in the very worst way and frankly depressing.

mistercrayon

What in the name. How is wanting democracy in any way depressing?

Diluted Dante

Complaining about unelected EU officials when we have the House of Lords is a bit lol.

Yossarian

But seriously in regards to Ian's question, I think the US was just right place, right time, right economic situation for lots of people to get into the web early on.

mistercrayon

Diluted Dante wrote:

Complaining about unelected EU officials when we have the House of Lords is a bit lol.

Nah, the lord's function is completely different and if there is true will to get something through the Elected MPs have a trump card in the Parliament Act.

[Deleted User]

mistercrayon wrote:

What in the name. How is wanting democracy in any way depressing?

Boris Johnson?

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