omglolz

So 'mod complains that he doesn't like Halo because the kill times are too slow, then when told about the weapons that will kill quickly in Halo says he doesn't want to use those weapons... ok.

Djorn, of course you don't have to be an MLG player to comment, nowhere did I say that. But you do have to understand the game, and every post he makes is full of so much idiocy that if I didn't know 'mod was a decent guy I'd swear was baiting. Also, what Nexx said.

I've long thought the kill times in Halo were ridiculous. You should be able to punish someone instantly if you get the drop on them not watch them bunny hop into safet

If your spawn weapon can't kill another player in one clip and you need to run in for a melee to finish them it's not a shooter anymore.

Two comments from his original post. Pretty sure he's saying Halo game design is 'not good' here.

Mod74 wrote:

What I dislike is being told that because I don't like doing something I'm doing it wrong. I took various advice last time and went and played using the DMR+headshot norm and whilst I could do it fine I didn't enjoy being forced to play that way. That's all.

K/D : 0.83 suggests you couldn't do it that fine... though maybe I'm being a bit unfair here.

Mod, I understand you have grievances, but they really do seem to be with core mechanic of Halo. It's always been that way and will hopefully always remain that way. Luckily enough there are plenty of other games which cater for those who don't like it.

DISCLAIMER: My own k/d is probably piss poor but fuck you everyone I was decent at Halo 3 even if I'm rubbish at Reach.

For reference, I've completed 1,3 and Reach on legendary, dabbled in the multi over the years but by no means play regularly.

So here's what I've learned so far, keeping an eye on the thread. I've changed my mind on my inital assumptions a bit.

Quicker kill times make for a more rewarding experience because if you have the drop on someone and can aim well, you should be able to end their life without the fear of them hopping off and recovering. The comeback mechanic shouldn't be so strong it rewards less-demanding defensive play over skilled agression.

It's something competitive games struggle with. Should you balance for the top 10% of skilled players, and risk being hard to crack for newcomers, or put in a defensive comeback mechanic that dilutes the purity of top-tier play, but makes the intermidiates and beginners feel like there is always a fighting chance.

From a unit-shifting perspective, the latter makes more business sense as it's more inclusive. However, the top 10% are the most vocal and the best positioned to asses what's 'good' balance in the game. So unfortunately there's no perfect solution for everyone, ever.

The thing I'd like to see games acknowledge more, though, is the fact that no matter how much you try and soften the edges of a solid cube of vs balance, great players will always find ways to have the edge over newcomers - and that's really how it should be.

Longer kill times = More time for more skilled player to assert his dominance? Fewer occasions where the worse player comes out better in a firefight?

Djornson wrote:

n

Exactly, this sums up how I feel about this thread at the moment.

Mod74 wrote:

I took various advice last time and went and played using the DMR+headshot norm and whilst I could do it fine I didn't enjoy being forced to play that way. That's all.

You can of course get by using any weapon in the game, all the weapons are there for good reason.  You just have to understand the strengths of each weapon and adjust your play style accordingly.  If I'm feeling lively I might lean towards the DMR or sniper and attempt control from a distance, or if I've had a couple of beers I might stick with the 'spray & pray' weapons while controlling smaller areas.

ok I see Nick. As promised my post about kill times is below.

 *Warning, epic wall of text upcoming. If talk of kill speeds, reticle bloom, bullet spread and such like bores you, move on. *

Your post above nails one aspect of fast kill speeds, the ability to play aggresively. In Halo you need kill speeds that are fast enough that a skilled player can kill people without the help of team mates. When team mates help it's called 'teamshooting' and this will always be a very important part of team based Halo play. However, if kill speeds are slow enough that the majority of the time an enemy can escape/be saved by his teammates before one person's bullets can kill him then the ONLY way to kill enemies is to teamshoot. This ultimately results in pretty stale gameplay where you either play super defensive and so make it easy to coordinate the team's teamshot or you play mindlessly aggresively and attempt to overwhelm a team in one particular place. If teamshot is all important then once you overwhelm 1 or 2 players in 1 place then the other 2 players can't do anything, they simply don't have enough fire power.

I want a Halo game where team play is very important (which it always will be due to the nature of the game) AND where the individual is empowered to kill enemies on his own. That requires fast kill times. To use a basic example, in football passing will always be hugely important, but the individual is empowered, through things like long shots and dribbling, to have a massive effect on a game on his own. Remove the individualistic aspect of football that allows someone like Lionel Messi to stand head and shoulders above almost everyone else in the world and you'd have a much worse game.

Weapon balance is also very important. Power weapons in Halo (for our purposes we'll define power weapons as only the rockets and sniper, it's more complicated than that but no need to go into it here) kill very quickly. That goes without saying, it's why they're power weapons. This is good, if you possess a power weapon you should have an intrinsic advantage. However, if my utility weapon (the weapon that can function at all ranges, the weapon that Halo DEPENDS upon to work, pistol in H1, BR in H2/H3, DMR in Reach) kills too slowly then I have NO chance against power weapons and if in any particular situation you're powerless it's bad. It's very frustrating and is generally bad game design. However, if you balance the utility weapon's kill speed against the power weapons correctly the utility weapon has a chance at any range against any gun but more range specific weapons have appropriate advantage.

Furthermore, the triune nature of Halo combat, melees, grenades and shooting, requires a fast killing weapon. Otherwise the trinity is whacked out of sync and you're left with 2 of the 3 becoming too powerful. We're being a bit harsh on mod because while he's arguing for completely the wrong reasons and while he doesn't really know what he's talking about, melees in 3 and Reach ARE too powerful because at close range in both games your guns don't kill fast enough to make shooting worthwhile, it's better to just melee. And frankly, melee isn't the funnest part of the Halo combat experience. Especially as there is no momentum or weapon based damage on weapons in H3 or Reach. It's simply mash RB in the very general vicinity of your enemy FTW.

One extremely important thing I've not mentioned so far is the relationship between average kill time and fastest possible kill time. It's this that makes the optimum Halo kill time very different from COD. I want my Halo weapons to be hard enough to use (due to aim assist, auto aim e.t.c) that the speed at which I kill an enemy is a result of my skill. I want it to be hard to kill someone in the fastest time possible. Halo CE had ridiculously fast kill times with the utility weapon (pistol) but it was very, very hard to 3 shot kill someone. The problem with the likes of Halo 3 and Reach is the kill times on the BR/DMR are too long but it's relatively easy to 4/5 shot kill someone. Balance the kill speeds vs the aiming/shooting difficulty appropiately so that there is a meaningfull difference between average kill time and fastest possible kill time and you're onto a winner. Hilariously (it's a laugh or cry thing) in H3/Reach Bungie did make a meaningfull difference between average kill time and fastest possible kill time but they did it by introducing a random mechanic into shooting. H3 had random bullet spread and Reach has reticle bloom. They did both to try and balance the utility weapon against the other weapons in the sandbox but they did it wrong. They should have done it by making the utility weapons difficult to use. Perasonally I'd make the BR/DMR kill quicker than the AR at all but the very closest of ranges (for the record I'd also make the AR kill quicker than it currently does) but lower aim assist and auto aim enough at close range so that it is very hard to hit all your shots with the BR/DMR before the AR (which would have much more forgiving auto aim/assist) kills you.

Of course, to make all this work, to stop new players getting utterly trounced all the time, you need a good skill based matchmaking system. Starcraft 2 is harder than any Halo game ever will be and there are players who are inhumanely good at that game, but I love playing it because the skill based matchmaking means I never have to play anyone who isn't VERY similar to me in standard. The rock solid core gameplay mechanics that mean Koreans can be so inumanely good are the same mechanics that means I absolutely love the game. To play and to watch.

Does this help? Any questions come back to me.

By the way, the first FPS I played properly, Goldeneye, made it so headshots killed faster. As do loads and loads of other FPS games. Why is 'mod so appalled by this piece of design?

Knight wrote:

By the way, the first FPS I played properly, Goldeneye, made it so headshots killed faster. As do loads and loads of other FPS games. Why is 'mod so appalled by this piece of design?

<Double checks he's not in the God thread>

FYI guys you can still get fast kills with a Needler. Just sayin.

Anyone on tonight for some team classic?

Funkstain wrote:

the basic mechanic remains that headshots are all-important, don't think anyone can deny that, right?

I can't deny that they're important, but they're not all important. Many weapons aren't head-shottable at all.

If anything is all-important in Halo, it's map control.

That's a part of it, but also holding key positions that give you the good lines of sight or which are easy to defend.