Racist
  • The guy I work with constantly tells me that our involvement in the Iraq war has nothing to do with him so how is he to blame. Why should he have to house refugees from the war... I just look at him at those times and don't know what to say.
    The next generation doesn't start until MAG comes out. 

    PSN: Scotswahey
  • Yossarian
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    You could try telling him that his taxes helped pay for it.
  • Oh I have I've told him he's paid for it and the elected government started it. But his argument is that nobody personally asked him so why's he to blame...
    The next generation doesn't start until MAG comes out. 

    PSN: Scotswahey
  • Yossarian
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    In that case, I suggest you blow up his house and start a campaign of systematic persecution until he's forced out of the country. He'll see the benefits of offering asylum then.
  • davyK
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    Dickens wrote:
    "It's not my business,'' Scrooge returned. ``It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!"
  • He's probably more than eager to bomb the shit out of ISIS, but doesn't want to give any aid or help to the civilians fleeing from ISIS persecution. Weird that.
  • Scotswahey wrote:
    We only have ourselves to blame but nope...

    Not to imply tolerance of racism and all that, but I've never been comfortable with this argument. While Britain did invade/ impact many of those countries 300+ years ago, you can't pin that on the current generation who have issues with migration (rightly or wrongly). Even with today, the average person in the street has little or no control on their governement policies abroad - especially those conducted in secret. The sad reality as I see it is that those seen as racist for wanting muslims/ blacks/ polish out or as much a victim of the past as thos looking to move from their own countries. I'm not excusing their overall actions but they have no control over what a country did 300 years ago.

    As a perspective perhaps, there are people in Ireland who support english football teams, have many english friends, have worked in england and speak english. Ask them what they think of the Englsih nation and they will straight faced tell you that they hate the english. And why? centuries of oppression. And yes, while it's relevant, I'd like to think that we can move on as countries. The last British PM to really fuck with the Irish was Thatcher (and to be fair, it would seem she fucked with her own too) and that was a quarter century ago. We are a curious type of species that holds onto so much bad history that it can potentially destroy our future.
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  • acemuzzy
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    Even though it wasn't our doing, our country is "better off" as a consequence of actions from 300 years ago. The way I see it is there's still a debt to pay.
  • Not sure I can get behind that as an argument . Rich lords years ago did something, now everyone else pays for it. (to be clear, I also dont see migration as some punishment or duty that one country owes to the bother. It should be shown as the overall positive thing it is)
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  • I'd like to think that we can move on as countries

    Me too, unfortunately a whole bunch of Leave voters had other ideas (mostly about banana and sausage legislation) and are now courting impoverished irrelevance, woohoo.
  • acemuzzy
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    RedDave2 wrote:
    Not sure I can get behind that as an argument . Rich lords years ago did something, now everyone else pays for it. (to be clear, I also dont see migration as some punishment or duty that one country owes to the bother. It should be shown as the overall positive thing it is)

    I guess it comes down to how far you view the benefit as stretching.
    To the rich Lords themselves?
    To their children?
    To all their descent?
    To people their descendents have given money to?
    The government that have received some of the wealth as tax?
    To people who live in a country that enjoys a higher quality of live / gdp than it would have done?
    People who have enjoyed the strength of gbp?

    I don't think there's an obvious answer in terms of who owns the debt, but I'm unclear if you're saying we're not better off, or we are better off but shouldn't do anything anyway? The latter isn't wholly unreasonable dependent on rationale behind it is suppose.

    I can't really remember what we're arguing about anyway.
  • acemuzzy
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    International IHT?
  • We absolutely have ourselves to blame for what we did 300 years ago because when it came to voting on the war we completely ignored what we did 300 years ago... When Britain took over Afghanistan all that time ago it set the ball rolling. We completely failed to recognize any links between conflicts of the past and conflicts going on today. I'd probably bet that half of those voting for the war hadn't even been aware we'd been in the country before. So we went in... then iraq... then half the middle east has fallen. Ignoring mistakes of the past and repeating them makes us responsible no matter how long ago the first event took place.
    The next generation doesn't start until MAG comes out. 

    PSN: Scotswahey
  • acemuzzy wrote:
    RedDave2 wrote:
    Not sure I can get behind that as an argument . Rich lords years ago did something, now everyone else pays for it. (to be clear, I also dont see migration as some punishment or duty that one country owes to the bother. It should be shown as the overall positive thing it is)
    I guess it comes down to how far you view the benefit as stretching. To the rich Lords themselves? To their children? To all their descent? To people their descendents have given money to? The government that have received some of the wealth as tax? To people who live in a country that enjoys a higher quality of live / gdp than it would have done? People who have enjoyed the strength of gbp? I don't think there's an obvious answer in terms of who owns the debt, but I'm unclear if you're saying we're not better off, or we are better off but shouldn't do anything anyway? The latter isn't wholly unreasonable dependent on rationale behind it is suppose. I can't really remember what we're arguing about anyway.

    I suppose if we go back to Scots mate, this is were I might see a problem. And to be clear, we are talking in very broad strokes. But that guys argument was that he cant be blamed for the war because he personnally pulled no trigger or voted for it etc. etc. Now, there's an argument that he could have voted for a different government at a certain point (either before the attack to try and prevent) or after (to punish the government) or that he could have led a petition/ protest against the war. Equally, he could have supported the government in question ya-da-ya-da . There's no evidence that he did in either way (probably did nothing) So his response to not being happy with migrants coming to his town and "upsetting things" holds a slight bit of water, at least in his mind. He didn't cause it, why should he and his family suffer. My problem with the argument of "hey, youre country caused it" is not that it is logically wrong but that (a) there's nothing a single voter can realisticaly have done and (b) it backs up his thinking that the migration is a punishment.  As I said, the best way to view migration is through the positives. 

    In terms of who benefits, I think that is on a fast track to nowhere. How far to you go back? What outside factors do you ignore? Can you look at how much the populace had information and influence on the government of the day. THere's benefits and effets of everything every governement does - some intentional and some not. At some point, History needs to be let go because otherwise...
    I can't really remember what we're arguing about anyway
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  • Scotswahey wrote:
    We absolutely have ourselves to blame for what we did 300 years ago because when it came to voting on the war we completely ignored what we did 300 years ago... When Britain took over Afghanistan all that time ago it set the ball rolling. We completely failed to recognize any links between conflicts of the past and conflicts going on today. I'd probably bet that half of those voting for the war hadn't even been aware we'd been in the country before. So we went in... then iraq... then half the middle east has fallen. Ignoring mistakes of the past and repeating them makes us responsible no matter how long ago the first event took place.

    I agree with what you are saying - the lessons of history should not be forgotten when we enact policies but when it comes to the average singular person, I think it's a fruitless argument to make. 

    Remember that toss pot who walked up to the musilim woman a while back and asked "whats that ISIS all about?" and she said it's nothing to do with me and he claimed it was a mealy mouth response? This isn't so different to me. I'd love if governements did spend more attention to every person but the fact is they dont. Just because an action occured under a flag that flies over your country doesnt mean that you had any responsability for it. Many times, you didn't even know it was happening.
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  • Escape
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    Are there immigration stats for the whole of Europe? We mostly assume the Eastern countries don't take many in, is that true?

    We haven't built enough new properties in this country for decades; that is on record. Until we tackle inequality, it's gonna keep rising with the global population.
  • Andy
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    Scotswahey wrote:
    We absolutely have ourselves to blame for what we did 300 years ago because when it came to voting on the war we completely ignored what we did 300 years ago...

    Sorry, who voted for a war? I'd stake my next payslip that the chap you're talking about knows very little about recent wars, and nothing at all about what happened three hundred years ago. By all means educate, but there's little point being angry at people who don't know about something, and have never been encouraged to find out. Of course he thinks the way he does, when those in a position to improve his knowledge instead prey upon his fears.
  • Andy
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    Escape wrote:
    Are there immigration stats for the whole of Europe? We mostly assume the Eastern countries don't take many in, is that true?

    It's not as simple as a number, though. How large is the population, currently? How does that break down into permanent residents and temporary? How many people are seeking residency, compared to numbers turned away? How many are seeking assyslum as opposed to those who it's safer to turn away?
  • I'm just amazed that they didn't see this happening or if they did they thought the profits would be too great to ignore.
    The next generation doesn't start until MAG comes out. 

    PSN: Scotswahey
  • A lot of complex stuff getting muddled together here.

    So to break it down.

    "I never voted for the Iraq war"
    No member of public did, nor was it even part of any manifesto. The general election prior to the Iraq war was a few months before 9/11 so nothing like this was on the cards, at least not to the public's knowledge. 
    I wasn't old enough to vote at that GE, I was 16 or 17 when the Iraq war started. What I can remember is that the public were not having any of this "weapons of mass destruction" nonsense and any referendum would have been a landslide NO. I think this is a solid point for the vast majority of the population but doesnt excuse a lack of compassion.

    "Why should I pay for immigrants if I didn't vote for it?"
    Well our country fucked up their country so our country owes them a debt and a safe place to live is currently the best we can do for them because their country isn't stable enough to just pay reparations/aid.
    The rest of Europe are taking refugees regardless of what the Mail says. The nation we should be angry at is the U.S.A, who seem quite content to stir up shit on the other side of the world but take few to none of the people it displaces. Also, how many immigrants live on Tony Blair's street? How much strain has it put on the schools his kids went to? Or the hospitals he goes to?


    "Have we benefited from the Iraq war?"
    Hard to say.
    It has made us more of a target for extremists and led to our involvement in Syria. Financially both wars must be cripplingly expensive and without them we could have dropped this austerity nonsense. Depending on what happens in the future we may benefit in the future but I doubt we have made financially or in terms of security in 2016. If we do make in the future I doubt that will trickle down to communities strained by having to house an immigrant population.

    "Have we benefited from the Empire and decisions made 300 years ago"
    Yes.
    We have one of the strongest currencies in the world even with the current rinsing of this brexit vote. Manufacturing abroad allows us luxuries due to low cost of living in developing countries. It may seem wrong that some of your income goes to correcting ancestors faults but the reason that income is so high globally is because of said faults.
    We are in this situation largely because of exploiting the rest of the world in the past. In terms of how we should balance this, I consider mass immigration to be the last option and reserved for unsettled states. It is far better that we continue to pay aid, educate and improve these nations and the quality of life within them so that immigration becomes a lifestyle choice not a financial or security choice. 
    We pay India aid despite them having a space programme, we fucking owe them it, if we stop I predict a costly law suit and reparations instead. If they choose to spend that aid on science rather than feeding their poor then that is their choice.
  • dynamiteReady
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    Escape wrote:
    Are there immigration stats for the whole of Europe? We mostly assume the Eastern countries don't take many in, is that true?

    We haven't built enough new properties in this country for decades; that is on record. Until we tackle inequality, it's gonna keep rising with the global population.

    There are clear figures on the rates of immigration amongst the EU states. The Brexit thread has more than a few links. And yes Poland and Romania are especially conspicuous in the remarkably low number of immigrants they accept. Especially when juxtaposed against the number of migrants that leave their respective boundaries.
    "I didn't get it. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, you fucking do your thing." - Roujin
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  • Have you been to Romania? They can barely take care of their own people, especially not their gypsy population. The last thing that country needs is a mass flux of immigrants.
    The next generation doesn't start until MAG comes out. 

    PSN: Scotswahey
  • dynamiteReady
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    it is far better that we continue to pay aid, educate and improve these nations and the quality of life within them so that immigration becomes a lifestyle choice not a financial or security choice.

    That's the very same attitude that the Chinese are exploiting in Africa and South America right now. That condescending 'aid is the answer' response to the problems caused by those actually offering aid.

    By contrast, what the Chinese are currently doing is not exactly a shining example of equitable trade... What's more, their domestic policies are bizarrely brutal, and incidental evidence suggests a great deal of racism on the mainland. But they're not invading countries, and do, in someway, respect local populations and political concerns.

    In summary, yes, we're probably at the stage where we should make an effort to move on, but poorly administered charity is not how the human race will effect that change.

    Also bear in mind that this island is, like France (and others, tbf), effectively a state built on the sum of it's many crimes... It's stance in the second world war is probably it's greatest redeeming feature in the grand scheme of things, socially speaking.

    "I didn't get it. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, you fucking do your thing." - Roujin
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  • Yossarian
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    We also had the Beatles.
  • If the Chinese are exploiting it then that doesnt make the stance itself wrong.
    Immigration cannot be the ultimate answer, it just isn't a practical solution long term. Nor is it something most people want, ask most Syrian refugees and I bet they would have rather stayed in their homeland had it not been ravaged.

    Not exploiting countries and not starting wars are things for the present and future, doing those alone doesn't make up for past atrocities. Ultimately we don't get to decide when we move on because we are not the victims.
  • One point I've heard about refugees is that if the British had given up like the Syrians did then the Germans would have won. I sort of get that. I mean if a force tried to overthrow our government I'd be staying to fight back but you do see an awful lot of men of fighting age coming into the UK from Syria. 

    Maybe thats just an ignorant observation.
    The next generation doesn't start until MAG comes out. 

    PSN: Scotswahey
  • dynamiteReady
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    Also, people writing shit like 'it was 300 years ago'... It fucking wasn't. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission of South Africa took place not much longer than ten years ago.
    "I didn't get it. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, you fucking do your thing." - Roujin
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  • Kow
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    Syria is in the middle of a civil war, it's not being invaded. If you don't feel passionately about what the rebels (including ISIS etc) stand for, or what Assad (a dictator) stands for, then dying to fight for them would be silly.
  • davyK
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    When it comes to Iraq - I do believe we actually created that country in the 20s. And it was a nightmare waiting to happen because we shunted different peoples together within a boundary we drew on a map. I believe Churchill was involved.

    It goes further back than messing up a country. "We" created the fuck up when we and the French were messing about in Mesopotamia - putting people in power, drawing maps and basically making an almighty mess.

    I suspect a lot of the UK wealth is founded in the plundering of natural resources, piracy etc going way back. To expect us to pay back is a little bit unrealistic. Maybe we should go back to the Italians for reparations for the Roman Empire's behaviour.
  • GooberTheHat
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    Scotswahey wrote:
    One point I've heard about refugees is that if the British had given up like the Syrians did then the Germans would have won. I sort of get that. I mean if a force tried to overthrow our government I'd be staying to fight back but you do see an awful lot of men of fighting age coming into the UK from Syria. 

    Maybe thats just an ignorant observation.
    That's a nonsense observation.
    As Kow said, its a civil war. If Labour went to war with the government, and then the church of England got involved and started killing people for not going to church on Sunday, would you hang around or duck off to France?

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