Racist - The Bear and Badger

cockbeard

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1231096481869959169?s=19

The fact he qualifies his statement with "you can't say anything for being racist nowadays"

Diluted Dante

You can't say anything racist these days without someone pointing out that you just said something racist.

cockbeard

I mean it pisses me the fuck off, especially his further qualification of in the eighties it was is Irish so now it's your turn, suck it up

But if I really think about it then I guess it's actually purely about profit and they'll open some Ryanair "no racial profiling" queue jump tickets for an extra 150 quid

cockbeard

Maybe get Scroobius Pip to be the face of it, "do airport queues make you worry about looking as hipster as you really want to?? Skip the cavity search and keep your beard by paying a couple of quid extra, frequent flyers subscribe for five pound a month"

b0r1s

While we’ve been discussing the specifics of racist cops in America it is clear that the demonstrations in the UK have brought out the racists now desperately trying to “fight their corner”.

You have the argument that peaceful demonstrations and lobbying are the only ways to make change. They want reasoned debate not angry mobs.

But when intelligent black people take that stance then the response is “if you don’t like the UK why don’t you leave/go back to your own country”. This is the fundamental baseline that white racists and I would add even those that don’t claim to be racist, work from.

This is an example I watched while having my morning coffee:

https://twitter.com/afuahirsch/status/1270331795557486592?s=21

The justification seems to be if you are white then it is your democratic right to be able to question the status quo and protest. If you are black it’s “shut up darkie and go back to where you came from”.

I’m really fucking sick of this shit.

Roujin

Oh look, Nick Ferrari (a very traditional british surname) telling a black person who wants to talk about the blind hero worshipping given to key historical figures to basically go back where they came from. He really is a loathesome little toad of a man, 11/10 heading for the guillotine during the revolution.

cockbeard

Maybe it's a trade name, like Thatcher, Baker, or Smith

edit: though still aspirational because middle class cunts

RedDave2

b0r1s wrote:

While we’ve been discussing the specifics of racist cops in America it is clear that the demonstrations in the UK have brought out the racists now desperately trying to “fight their corner”.

You have the argument that peaceful demonstrations and lobbying are the only ways to make change. They want reasoned debate not angry mobs.

But when intelligent black people take that stance then the response is “if you don’t like the UK why don’t you leave/go back to your own country”. This is the fundamental baseline that white racists and I would add even those that don’t claim to be racist, work from.

This is an example I watched while having my morning coffee:

https://twitter.com/afuahirsch/status/1270331795557486592?s=21

The justification seems to be if you are white then it is your democratic right to be able to question the status quo and protest. If you are black it’s “shut up darkie and go back to where you came from”.

I’m really fucking sick of this shit.

If nick has such a problem with black British people standing up for the truth and for change, why doesn't he just leave?

If he had such a problem with Britain's role in the EU and wanted a more us style lifestyle why didn't he leave?

Answers on a postcard folks.

Diluted Dante

Because he's a twat.

davyK

The statue dumping thing raises some interesting questions.

Whilst I understand the action of dumping that one into the drink, I don't think that's the way to deal with it.

The last thing we need is a whitewashing of history. I heard something this morning on the radio about HBO withdrawing "Gone with the Wind" from their service. A knee jerk reaction if ever there was one.

There's the issue of the likes of the MGM Tom and Jerry cartoons and other works by Disney. We need to think how these artifacts are curated.

I don't think it was ever appropriate to have anyone associated with slavery enshrined in a statue but I can understand them being put there because of other works.

I don't think they are appropriate for public places now however - and haven't been for a long time. However that's easy for me to say in retrospect being white.

I've experienced a tiny taste of what black people experience. I've been tailed through stately homes by plain clothes security in the 90s because of my accent and had things said to me in England about having a bomb up my coat. I didn't get a lot of it but it was annoying.

I can't imagine how black people deal with a lot worse day in day out. And it's only when something happens that gains traction that the likes of me thinks about it. These things all have a half life - this needs to stick - but I don't see how that can happen.

Not without leadership at any rate. And we certainly don't have that at the minute.

Roujin

Removing these statues isn't whitewashing history, whitewashing history is having these statues erected, with plaques saying about the generosity, or bravery of these people and not mentioning their slave owning/trading sources of wealth enabling said generosity, or their rampant overt racism.

That's why there are angry gammons up and down the country, they don't like having a mirror held up to them and shattering their image of green and pleasant lands, which is a result of decades of not teaching people the true history of this country.

davyK

Fair enough the plaques need revising. There are a few in Ireland that many are saying now need that done.

Even with the a plaque change I'm not sure we should stomach a statue - but they should be moved not removed.

Roujin

Same for things like Tom and Jerry, remove the racist caricature or don't show those cartoons. Same for all the racist crows and native americans depicted in Disney stuff.

If it's just being racist it doesn't need curating, or looking after. It offers no educational benefit, it doesn't say anything to the viewer other than lol foerigners are funny.

Tempy

They tried to get it removed through lawful means many times and were always rebuffed. Eventually people get sick of this shit, protecting legacies of people who capitalised on their inhumane treatment of other humans.

I dislike the idea of getting it taken out and installed in a museum to educate people, or any of the number of novel approaches others have thought of. Leave it there, history will remember the act more than the monument.

davyK

I draw the line at their removal. Control access - yes.

Pretending these things didn't exist is an enormous mistake.

Tempy

History is taught in many more places than through statutes - if you aren’t proclaiming front and centre that your statue of a slaver is of a slaver, what’s the point of it? It’s educating no one, but glorifying one particular legacy.

davyK

I think too many rely on memory as a history archive.

You saying the Shoah Foundation be wrapped up too ? Build over the death camp sites and trust it all to memory?

That's silly. Just as silly as pretending racism / slavery didn't happen either. We have to keep reminding ourselves just how awful we can be to each other - and that needs documented no matter how uncomfortable it is.

I don't think the Dahcau camp I visited last year glorified anything. And if these artifacts are treated the same way then they do have an educational value. The very fact that people could be capable of kindness while owning or selling slaves is the very point that needs put across. Painting them as 1 dimensional demons does no good at all.

Tempy

One hundred percent guarantee you more people now know about Bristol’s slavery links through the action of people tearing down that statue than it being up there ever has.

Tempy

davyK wrote:

I think too many rely on memory as a history archive.

You saying the Shoah Foundation be wrapped up too ? Build over the death camp sites and trust it all to memory?

That's silly. Just as silly as pretending racism / slavery didn't happen either. We have to keep reminding ourselves just how awful we can be to each other - and that needs documented no matter how uncomfortable it is.

Those things are a daft comparison? A massive cognitive leap happening there. They’re memorials to an atrocity, this was a statue to a man. There was nothing about his history there, just a reward for the benevolence of his investments. If you want to erect a memorial to those enslaved by Colston, go for it. Why does his legacy need protecting? It covers up his history.

Roujin

davyK wrote:

I draw the line at their removal. Control access - yes. Pretending these things didn't exist is an enormous mistake.

No one is pretending racism didn't happen.

What we want is for people to be taught properly about the history of this country and we don't want anyone who was a racist, or a homophobe, or a tyrant or just a cunt, to be given a statue in a public space. They are no longer the sorts of people that we want to revere as a society anymore. I don't care that Churchill helped win WW2, he was a fucking racist and in 2020 that shouldn't be tolerated.

Kids in school will continue to learn what a pivotal character in our recent history he was, that will never change, but they should be taught that as well as the good he did as PM during the war, he was a massive racist and the deaths of many thousands of people are on his hands as a result of his actions in Ireland and India.

davyK

I think we need to remember that slave owners were revered and had statues raised to them. These people existed in a community. They were part of our society - such as it was in the past. And they need to be kept as evidence.

How that is accessed is for others to decide.

I understand how revolting that is today. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Tempy

I think they decided as a city long ago that they were unhappy with it, and because they were rebuked for years they put him in the drink.

Roujin

davyK wrote:

I think too many rely on memory as a history archive. You saying the Shoah Foundation be wrapped up too ? Build over the death camp sites and trust it all to memory? That's silly. Just as silly as pretending racism / slavery didn't happen either. We have to keep reminding ourselves just how awful we can be to each other - and that needs documented no matter how uncomfortable it is. I don't think the Dahcau camp I visited last year glorified anything. And if these artifacts are treated the same way then they do have an educational value. The very fact that people could be capable of kindness while owning or selling slaves is the very point that needs put across. Painting them as 1 dimensional demons does no good at all.

The difference with things like Dachau or Hadrians Wall or the buildings that these racist philanthropists built is that they serve a purpose. Unlike the statues erected to the people that build them which fail to mention where the money came from, or that the people being praised for their generosity were only generous when it came to helping white people.

LivDiv

I liked Banksy's concept for the statue.

Fish it out of the river, mount it in the plinth at 30 degrees. Then make statues of protestors next to it pulling it down.

It degrades Coulston's memory and preserves history.

davyK

Tempy wrote:

davyK wrote:

I think too many rely on memory as a history archive. You saying the Shoah Foundation be wrapped up too ? Build over the death camp sites and trust it all to memory? That's silly. Just as silly as pretending racism / slavery didn't happen either. We have to keep reminding ourselves just how awful we can be to each other - and that needs documented no matter how uncomfortable it is.

Those things are a daft comparison? A massive cognitive leap happening there. They’re memorials to an atrocity, this was a statue to a man. There was nothing about his history there, just a reward for the benevolence of his investments. If you want to erect a memorial to those enslaved by Colston, go for it. Why does his legacy need protecting? It covers up his history.

Not saying that - saying that if monuments and artifacts of the Holocaust are kept then so should slave trade artifacts.

Chuck a statue in the river - fair enough. But that statue needs to be put somewhere as evidence. That's all I'm saying.

Roujin

Basically I want the statues of all these fucks removed and replaced with statues of people who are worthy of appreciation in their local communities. If it's a public space, the public should have the final say on who is on the podium.

b0r1s

Great comments guys but none of it addresses the core fundamental of my point. The statue is a catalyst for gammons to react.

But the point was black people aren’t allowed to react without the “why don’t you leave” comments. And it wasn’t just his comment it was the smirking and eye-rolling around the table from everyone. Not one single person was willing to come at this as a point of debate. As soon as the statue of Churchill went up on that video you could their backs go up.

This core reaction to the debate is fundamentally more racist than any statue. This would never be said to white people protesting against what they see as injustices in their own country. And it’s not just Ferrari, he’s just an example I cited.

Tempy

It wasn’t a slave trade artefact. They tried to get his plaque amended to include his involvement, it never passed. Asking for a new statue, or something that accurately reflects his history - that’s fine, but what currently existed did nothing of the sort.

Kow

Nobody builds a statue to mark history, they build them to praise. Burn them all fucking down.

ZMM

Regarding the Colston statue, I think it should have been taken down long ago. I don't think tearing it down and chucking it in a river was ok. Hopefully, the courts will only issue warnings or perhaps community service for the offenders. I don't see how it can be pardoned. What sort of message does that send, especially since it was a listed monument. What I do hope they do now is drag it up from the dock, put it back as it is, with graffiti and damage, and do something creative with it. Perhaps Bristol's own Banksy could be involved. I think that would be even more impactful than removing it completely. It would make everyone who sees it consider slavery, how abhorrent it was, how it was wrong for those who profited from slavery to be lauded, and how we can hopefully learn from it. I do think that its violent toppling and (given the history of slavery) the symbolism involved in throwing into the dock, is a stunning moment and has already become modern history.

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