Racist
  • davyK
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    It swings both ways. The anger is understandable but not defensible.
  • Kow
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    White privilege might be a thing where there is a dominant white population and a sizeable coloured minority, but it seems to put everyone white into the same category of privilege. In the 70/80s in Ireland there was nobody for us to be privileged over. And the fact that we were white didn't seem to put us in any better standing in the UK than the black/Asian community.
  • It probably did put you in better standing, at least until speaking. Things like not being side-eyed when walking into a shop etc.
  • I think that's the thing here, the 'privilege' enjoyed won't be obvious, more things we take for granted as being the norm.
  • Kow
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    We were ok until we opened our mouths? Ok so.
  • Kow
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    I don't doubt it but there is a "privilege" hierarchy within being white too. Which makes the phrase redundant really. Are Italians white? Spanish? Israelis? Chinese? Greeks?
  • Kow wrote:
    We were ok until we opened our mouths? Ok so.

    I'm not arguing in favour of the discrimination, was just saying that until an Irish accent was heard you'd have most likely have been assumed 'one of us', I'd have thought.
  • Kow wrote:
    I don't doubt it but there is a "privilege" hierarchy within being white too. Which makes the phrase redundant really. Are Italians white? Spanish? Israelis? Chinese? Greeks?

    There is an overarching privilege hierarchy within being white. It's called social class which is what the upper classes are so desperately trying to conserve.
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  • Kow
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    Well yeah, I'd agree it's about class. And also a sense of 'otherness' which is definitely not limited to white.
  • Assesment is correct. It's about consolidating wealth and political power.
    Ethnicity is secondary...

    To the upper classes racism and thus privilege are mere tools to appease the angry native plebs. Divide and conquer on the lower class. They'll vote conservative too if deployed right.
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  • Kow
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    Reminds me of a book by Antonio Salas in which he infiltrated the neo nazi groups in the Real Madrid Ultras. They were contacted by South American white power groups looking for possible coordination opportunities but offended them greatly by telling them that they didn't consider them to be actually white.
  • davyK
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    My father lived briefly in Wolverhampton looking for work - must have been the '50s. When looking for accommodation it wasn't rare to see signs in the window stating No Blacks or Irish.

    Seeing a black person in N.ireland was a genuine novelty pre-ceasefire. We had Chinese and India/Pakistan communities of course but they were very small and encounters were largely confined to restaurants and takeaway visits. Indian doctors were the other encounters. To see someone of black African origin who wasn't a soldier was extremely rare.

    Heh. English - white or black non soldiers were a rarity.
  • davyK
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    Anyone who chose to live here in NI during the troubles tended to be eccentric. The guy who ran the Belfast City bus service was a German who at times drove a bus himself and on at least one occasion carried hoax bombs off the bus and carried on with his route.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Heubeck
  • Kow wrote:
    Reminds me of a book by Antonio Salas in which he infiltrated the neo nazi groups in the Real Madrid Ultras. They were contacted by South American white power groups looking for possible coordination opportunities but offended them greatly by telling them that they didn't consider them to be actually white.

    Damn they should've checked their Racist privilege
  • dynamiteReady
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    I don't find the concept of white privilege useful, helpful or tactically astute...

    It is tactically astute, because it's helped attract attention to a group of problems that do have a cumulative, negative effect on minority groups in the UK west.

    The problems found in the justice system are well known. 

    Then there is also empirical evidence for bias against black people specifically, in the education system. 
    But that's much harder to unpack, because, as others have stated, class issues blatantly distract from the subtle problems that do affect race when it comes to education.

    Then after that, there are so many seemingly glaring instances of bias that appear in far less scrutable areas of society. And it is in these areas, where you can find the building blocks upon which someone can build an idea like "white privilege". 

    For example, it's amazing to think that:

    On average, 24% of applicants of white British origin received a positive response from employers, compared with 15% of minority ethnic applicants applying with identical CVs and cover letters. All of the minority applications clearly stated that they were either British-born or had arrived in the country by the age of six and had obtained all their education and training in Britain.
     
    Source - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/17/minority-ethnic-britons-face-shocking-job-discrimination

    No one can refute this problem.
    And if it happens in the employment market, you can be as sure as fuck it's happening else where. 
    Personal finance definitely comes to mind. 

    How would you legislate against such clear injustices? 
    Even with empirical evidence, how do you raise a debate around that?
    Attempts to isolate problems like these for objective discussion are often stonewalled, even within the communities that have to deal with them.

    Framing these issues with a rhetoric banner though, has appeared to have forced a general discussion about them, and their apparent roots. edit - And not all of these issues can be covered by class alone.

    I mean, I don't like the corny way the term is rattled around, but I certainly appreciate the dialogue it's started.
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  • Yeah that’s completely valid. If the language was sanitised to be more acceptable, less spiky and confrontational, it wouldn’t be having the same impact. As bad as “Defund the police” is, “Reform the police” would be getting ignored. Ditto “Black disadvantage” instead of white privilege or “Black Lives Matter Too”

    Edit - Actually think BLM is a genius coinage.
  • dynamiteReady
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    I find BLM as a slogan to be a crass reduction personally, but everything being discussed in it's name so far, is welcome.
    Even this idea of 'Defunding the Police', while stupid, at least focusses attention on what they are actually supposed to do, and how they do it.

    And that's a useful conversation for the public, no matter what race you are.
    "I didn't get it. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, you fucking do your thing." - Roujin
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  • monkey wrote:
    Yeah that’s completely valid. If the language was sanitised to be more acceptable, less spiky and confrontational, it wouldn’t be having the same impact. As bad as “Defund the police” is, “Reform the police” would be getting ignored. Ditto “Black disadvantage” instead of white privilege or “Black Lives Matter Too”

    Edit - Actually think BLM is a genius coinage.

    Defund is a sensible negotiation point because if you get a compromise it will be (theoretically) reform.

    .
  • dynamiteReady
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    There are some really good ideas that could potentially be described as 'defunding'. Like the kind of stuff they've been doing in Scotland for the past 15 years.

    But it's still stupid to champion 'defunding', because the people currently in the position to do that, can use the cost cutting resource allocation process as a great excuse to lower standards even further.

    It's better not to float the idea of cutting any form of public service funding.

    That's actually the 'end game' the conservatives want to effect.

    Because then you can eventually push the case for privatising the police.

    On some OCP shit.
    "I didn't get it. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, you fucking do your thing." - Roujin
    Ninty Code: SW-7904-0771-0996
  • That would be terrifying
    .
  • dynamiteReady
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    It's already been attempted (in the UK at least):

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/mar/02/police-privatisation-security-firms-crime

    Requests for proposals and everything.
    But unsurprisingly, things went quiet, after the facts became known.

    I understand the anger in the US very well, but I think the US ringleaders of the movement need to put more care into the craft of some of these ideas.
    "I didn't get it. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, you fucking do your thing." - Roujin
    Ninty Code: SW-7904-0771-0996
  • Now that is a terrifying prospect.
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  • nick_md wrote:
    Kow wrote:
    We were ok until we opened our mouths? Ok so.

    I'm not arguing in favour of the discrimination, was just saying that until an Irish accent was heard you'd have most likely have been assumed 'one of us', I'd have thought.

    Why do you think red hair is hated :)
    Wind Waker is a bad game
  • https://www.vox.com/culture/21530505/white-noise-interview-alt-right-cernovich-spencer-southern

    Who woulda thunk, the alt right is one big con. Hot air sold by the cult of personality. Gotta win over the youth to win that conservative vote! And make great profit while at it cos why not.
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  • That seems like a grand waste of everyone's time.
  • Maybe let's not have an old white man please.
    Cpuld even get someone who gives a shit about football.
  • "Coloured" is an improvement on historic uh trends at least.
  • Kow
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    What would have been less offensive? Doesn't seem like something worth resigning over to me.
  • Also I think being a homo absolutely can be a life choice without some deep biological Reason and that's absolutely fine?
    Still, big rich person, nothing of actual value lost here.

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