Racist - The Bear and Badger

tin_robot

RedDave2 wrote:

I think he means because they are non lethal, the officer will be more quick to use them then a gun and not be as considerate of the consequences. They may even treat them as a more casual defence.

Essentially yes.

And that conceivably if the Police didn't have Tasers then the 8000 people that they were used on might have been restrained with non-lethal, rather than "less lethal" methods.

RedDave2

Has anyone made the "thats a shocking stat" gag yet?

g.man

There is of course a longer version, though it should be pointed out that it is still incomplete. The full recording apparently goes on for about 8 minutes apparently, but I'm damned if I'm going to waste any more time looking for it.

My ten cents worth is that neither the man nor the police officers seem to handle the situation very well, but hey, I wasn't there and I haven't seen the missing parts of the tape.

tin_robot

Andy wrote:

I was using a list of people killed by the Police in the UK, so I don't know how I missed the 2013 one. It's worth noting that, in that case, he'd dowsed himself in petrol, which ignited when he was tasered.

As an aside, I'd agree that this is note-worthy, but surely for the opposite reason to the one you imply. With most people it's very difficult to know if Tasering is going to be potentially fatal, but in a guy covered with petrol it's surely pretty obvious? Also - do the Police get any guidance on identifying people in whom it's likely to be a bad idea - like the elderly for instance?

Yossarian wrote:

I also have a stinking cold. When you work out how to cure yours can you post me whatever you're taking, plox?

Currently I'm using dirt cheap paracetamol and ibuprofen from Aldi, with an IrnBru chaser.

mistercrayon

I thought the cure for cold was well known:

Stay in pyjamas until lunch and wail about dying until 3pm then eat some mash.

Yossarian

Do I need a prescription for any of the above?

tin_robot

Yossarian wrote:

Do I need a prescription for any of the above?

Here:

Pyjamas - o.d. Supply 1 (one)
Potato - b.d. Supply 1 bag. Mix with boiling water, then combine with butter and milk. Crush vigorously.
Wailing - o.d. Maintain until resolution of symptoms or existential angst becomes unbearable.
Irn Bru (private Rx) - 4 cans. b.d. Consult dentist after completing course.

That should do it.

[Deleted User]

tin_robot wrote:

As an aside, I'd agree that this is note-worthy, but surely for the opposite reason to the one you imply. With most people it's very difficult to know if Tasering is going to be potentially fatal, but in a guy covered with petrol it's surely pretty obvious?

In our training, that was highlighted, yes. Some (including, I would imagine, many cops in England who carry one) don't grasp exactly how it works, and don't think about ignition. That was a failure of training prior to that incident. I don't know enough about that incident (type of cops involved, their awareness of his prior actions) to comment either way.

tin_robot wrote:

Also - do the Police get any guidance on identifying people in whom it's likely to be a bad idea - like the elderly for instance?

AFOs north of the border certainly do. There are variables described as 'impact factors' that are used to scale the response. It's up to the officer to justify their actions. A smaller female officer would be more likely to be justified in using a greater degree of force than a tall, well built male officer, for example. It's worth noting, though, that there aren't many situations you are told that you absolutely cannot use a certain weapon; the operational reality is that, at times, discharging a particular weapon is less than ideal but there is insufficient time to change tactics; a weapon might already be drawn and ready. Or, for example, the fact that it's several times faster to draw and fire a hand gun like a Glock 17 than it is to draw and fire a taser. CS and pepper spray are even slower, do not work immediately, and do not work on everyone.

g.man

tin_robot wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

Do I need a prescription for any of the above?

Here: Pyjamas - o.d. Supply 1 (one) Potato - b.d. Supply 1 bag. Mix with boiling water, then combine with butter and milk. Crush vigorously. Wailing - o.d. Maintain until resolution of symptoms or existential angst becomes unbearable. Irn Bru (private Rx) - 4 cans. b.d. Consult dentist after completing course. That should do it.

God love you Tin.

Yossarian

tin_robot wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

Do I need a prescription for any of the above?

Here:

Pyjamas - o.d. Supply 1 (one)
Potato - b.d. Supply 1 bag. Mix with boiling water, then combine with butter and milk. Crush vigorously.
Wailing - o.d. Maintain until resolution of symptoms or existential angst becomes unbearable.
Irn Bru (private Rx) - 4 cans. b.d. Consult dentist after completing course.

That should do it.

Thank you doctor.

God bless the NHS.

[Deleted User]

tin_robot wrote:

Andy wrote:

I was using a list of people killed by the Police in the UK, so I don't know how I missed the 2013 one. It's worth noting that, in that case, he'd dowsed himself in petrol, which ignited when he was tasered.

As an aside, I'd agree that this is note-worthy, but surely for the opposite reason to the one you imply. With most people it's very difficult to know if Tasering is going to be potentially fatal, but in a guy covered with petrol it's surely pretty obvious?

Let's not overestimate bobbies, now, Tin. This ain't the SAS we're talking about.

Escape

I know the area quite well, and it's a bad combination of fed-up residents and scared cops. Our police have no combat training and a history of chronically overreacting to innocuous situations (some of my friends have been on the wrong end). In this case, the guy simply used his arm to break away because the male was trying to restrain him without charge. If he'd wanted to throw a punch at that point, he'd have thrown a punch. He didn't, and she fired while he was out of range. Any threat — of which there was no prior evidence — had diminished unless he moved closer of his own accord.

It was a gross overreaction to fear in a meeting that shouldn't have fuelled any. Our police should understand that they're not respected in such areas, and that it benefits everyone for them to be as courteous as possible. If the feeling's that this undermines their authority, you're dealing with people liable to channel their frustrations over a lack of automatic respect through Tasers.

It takes a lot of courage and empathy to be a great officer. Careerists with authority complexes often do more harm than good.

[Deleted User]

It's a frustrating video to watch because the guy videoing is not helping, to the extent that he himself is effectively committing an offence.

[Deleted User]

Wow. This is why we love you bobbies.

What offence is that, pray?

[Deleted User]

Hindering them in their lawful duty. It's obviously on the low end of the scale, which is partly why people rarely get charged, but it's the kind of thing cops deal with on a regular basis.

If people disagree with the action cops are taking, there are official, lawful ways they can go about making complaint. Barking over the top of them when they are trying to control a subject, which hinders their ability to communicate with the subject, and effectively encouraging further dissent in the subject, is not the way to go about it.

b0r1s

Let's be honest. Anytime anything happens with cops in general and not much gets done. Maybe a "talking to". A Birmingham DJ got stopped by Met police because he was driving a Bentley and was told it's a fact that black people commit more crimes hence why he was stopped. No suspension, no reprimand just a talking to.

This is why a vast majority of people, within the targeted demographic, don't trust the police. And why things like this video happen. The police should be equally as accountable as anyone for breaking the law, but it just doesn't happen.

[Deleted User]

b0r1s wrote:

The police should be equally as accountable as anyone for breaking the law,

I agree.

Yossarian

I'd say that they should be held to an even higher standard, myself.

Diluted Dante

Andy wrote:

Hindering them in their lawful duty. It's obviously on the low end of the scale, which is partly why people rarely get charged, but it's the kind of thing cops deal with on a regular basis.

If people disagree with the action cops are taking, there are official, lawful ways they can go about making complaint. Barking over the top of them when they are trying to control a subject, which hinders their ability to communicate with the subject, and effectively encouraging further dissent in the subject, is not the way to go about it.

You're right, file a complaint after they have killed someone is the correct method.

mistercrayon

Yossarian wrote:

I'd say that they should be held to an even higher standard, myself.

but what if that standard is upheld by the law?!

Bwaaaaaaaaah

[Deleted User]

Andy wrote:

Hindering them in their lawful duty. It's obviously on the low end of the scale, which is partly why people rarely get charged, but it's the kind of thing cops deal with on a regular basis.

If people disagree with the action cops are taking, there are official, lawful ways they can go about making complaint. Barking over the top of them when they are trying to control a subject, which hinders their ability to communicate with the subject, and effectively encouraging further dissent in the subject, is not the way to go about it.

Why this could be an extract from a supreme court judgment, so sound is the jurisprudence.

[Deleted User]

Another one resorting to insults. But, no, you're right, I don't have a sound understanding of the law. The convictions I've had for obstruct and hinder were blind luck.

Jaco

Had a run in with tasers once. Not pleasant. Resulted in five policemen beating up two of my family members (one of whom was thrown through a fence and ended up with a dislocated shoulder as the other was kicked repeatedly while on the floor) after tasing another family member 3 times. He ended up in hospital for 2 days.

Judge took coppers side despite the fact there were plenty of witnesses and the police all had the same story word for word. The coppers got a slap on the wrists for excessive force, all my family members were completely acquitted. Makes no sense.

PS: all these family members were black and the judge and police were white. I'm sure that made no difference though...

Yossarian

Christ.

[Deleted User]

Diluted Dante wrote:

You're right, file a complaint after they have killed someone is the correct method.

I'm not going to argue that it's awful when someone dies, much the same as I'm not going to argue with Jim's experience above being a fucking disgrace. I'm just not sure you can argue that shouting at the Police while they're trying to arrest someone is helping anyone. I'm also not sure that the actions of the few justifies the abuse that gets levelled at cops at just about every arrest made in public.

[Deleted User]

For the most part, though, I'm certain that my involvement in this discussion won't resolve anything, so I'll respectfully leave it alone.

b0r1s

Certainly in the UK and America that makes all the difference unfortunately @Jaco.

There has been enough documented evidence to show that the force is institutionally racist. I'm sure the top bods are making an effort to change things but that will take time and a massive change in mindset.

On a personal level I've had limited contact with the police apart from some speeding tickets. However I got insight into the mindset of how some officers could be when my mates new girlfriend, a copper, turned up to a party at my house. After having a couple of drinks she turned to me and asked me where the weed was. Funnily enough it was another friends wife, who was white, who had brought some with her.

I don't include @Andy in any of my comments about the police. I've yet to encounter anyone on B&B even slightly racist.

[Deleted User]

Jaco wrote:

Had a run in with tasers once. Not pleasant. Resulted in five policemen beating up two of my family members (one of whom was thrown through a fence and ended up with a dislocated shoulder as the other was kicked repeatedly while on the floor) after tasikng another family member 3 times. He ended up in hospital for 2 days.

Judge took coppers side despite the fact there were plenty of witnesses and the police all had the same story word for word. The coppers got a slap on the wrists for excessive force, all my family members were completely acquitted. Makes no sense.

PS: all these family members were black and the judge and police were white. I'm sure that made no difference though...

I'm sorry to read that bud

Jaco

Cheers @legaldinho. These things happen to many, I'd imagine. Just difficult when it hits your family. What makes it really awkward is that I also have a family member that's a serving officer...

RedDave2

Holy Crackers Jaco/ Jim, that's quite insane.

On the overall topic of racism, I worry that it becomes so ingrained with people that they can never change. I have an Uncle who is otherwise a genuine lovely fellow. Or so I thought. Then one day his daughter brought home a coloured boyfriend. Holy shit, did that provoke such a change. Even now, his daughter is 8 years with the guy, living together and they have a kid and my uncle cant accept the dad. He loves his granddaughter to bits but the poor dad can do nothing to change things (now to be fair, the dad is a bit of a 'geezer' to use his own words but my own dad assures me that the reaction would have been the same regardless of the guys character)

Sad really but as I say, it seems so built in to some people that they cant let it go. Its always worse when you see this shit in people you thought were otherwise sensible

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