The Last Jedi & Episode 9 - Discussion and SPOILERS (that means stay out if you have not seen it) - The Bear and Badger

monkey

You know there’s trouble when you don’t know why stuff happened in a film like this. Was Del Toro the bloke they were supposed to find or what? If not it’s a bit of a weird coincidence. If he was, it’s a bit of a weird coinicidence. Who was the glasses alien person fighting? Why didn’t Admiral Lady tell people what she was planning? Why did the other one love Finn at the end? She’d known him about 16 hours. Couldn’t the First Order just call in some mid-range ships that could catch the Princess Leia ship? Some plank somewhere (the Guardian I think) was saying this was up there with Empire. Get out.

Moot_Geeza

The force being 'a bit like a deep appreciation for jazz' was probably a better explanation than Midichlorians.

Roujin

The force never needed explaining though imho. In a way, it was far better served just being a thing that people didn't really understand, just something that was there and could be harnessed by a tiny minority of beings.

The constant thirst for exposition and origin stories and lore in modern cinematic universe stuff just leads to garbage like midichlorian counts, turning something that didn't need a full explanation in order to be understood into a shonen jump DrangonballZ ITS OVER 9000 clown fiesta.

Then you get the other problem which is characters like Snoke, who were setup like they had a backstory or were a figure of great importance to the plot, but who are then killed off in the very next film.

The whole thing is utterly baffling.

hylian_elf

I’m hoping they find a way to bring Snoke back without it looking like damage limitation/we made a mistake killing him off thing. He was the best thing about the film, alongside Driver. He could still be alive, but they really need to nail his comeback. “I know his every intent, I know his mind” etc could be taken to mean he knew what Ren was about to do but knows how to resurrect. Dunno.

[Deleted User]

hylian_elf wrote:

I’m hoping they find a way to bring Snoke back without it looking like damage limitation/we made a mistake killing him off thing. He was the best thing about the film, alongside Driver. He could still be alive, but they really need to nail his comeback. “I know his every intent, I know his mind” etc could be taken to mean he knew what Ren was about to do but knows how to resurrect. Dunno.

You're fired

hylian_elf

Just watched it for 2nd time. Better cos I knew what to expect. Basically get rid of that middle casino mission bit and end it earlier and it’d be so much better.

Appreciate some of the shots a lot more this time. But yeah. Snoke bits and fight with Royal Guards was best.

monkey

The Snoke thing is all about expectations. About playing around with ROTJ and where the audience thinks the film is going. Fair enough that they didn’t do a scene for scene retread like the Force Awakens, but killing him off with about five hours of the film left to run just made it all a bit weird.

Moot_Geeza

Snoke and mirrors.

It felt like they were going for the unexpected, which worked for me. I was pretty convinced everyone not wearing red in that scene would escape relatively unscathed.

[Deleted User]

monkey wrote:

You know there’s trouble when you don’t know why stuff happened in a film like this. Was Del Toro the bloke they were supposed to find or what? If not it’s a bit of a weird coincidence. If he was, it’s a bit of a weird coinicidence.

My take on that (although I’ll no doubt find out I’m wrong when I rewatch it) was that she told them to look for a man with blah blah blah. I don’t think she actually said, “He is the man with blah blah blah,” but that’s obviously how Finn & Rose took it. A coincidence? It’s a film universe with telekenisis, psychic visions and telepathy; I don’t think sending people to a place they’ll predictably be arrested to find a man who’s in jail there is much of a stretch.

monkey wrote:

Who was the glasses alien person fighting?

She told us. A trade union, iirc. We’ve already seen that she makes a living surrounded by ne’er-do-wells and can handle herself, so I don’t think it’s too out of the ordinary for her to be having a wee fire-fight. We might see some more about it in the final episode, we might not. It’s just a reminder that our films’ heroes aren’t he only ones leading exciting (shit) lives.

monkey wrote:

Why didn’t Admiral Lady tell people what she was planning?

She did, she just didn’t tell everyone, including Poe (because he doesn’t need to know, he needs to follow orders) and the audience (because films do that sometimes; it allows for dramatic reveals).

monkey wrote:

Why did the other one love Finn at the end? She’d known him about 16 hours.

Again, because films do that. Cinema is full of examples of people falling for each other having experienced brief but life-threatening situations together. Rose had also idolised Finn before she met him, so it’s hardly surprising that she gets a bit moist when it turns out he’s a hotty.

monkey wrote:

Couldn’t the First Order just call in some mid-range ships that could catch the Princess Leia ship?

Because ~~Star Wars~~ ~~films~~ the entire history of storytelling is full of massive evil forces that could easily crush the good underdog failing to do the right thing, and letting the underdog get the upper hand despite all the odds.

monkey wrote:

Some plank somewhere (the Guardian I think) was saying this was up there with Empire. Get out.

Yeah, it’s not the best, it’s only the third best of the recent films, but there’s some grade A nonsense being said about it on both sides.

tin_robot

monkey wrote:

You know there’s trouble when you don’t know why stuff happened in a film like this. Was Del Toro the bloke they were supposed to find or what?

No. They were supposed to speak to the bloke in the casino, but never got to him.

monkey wrote:

If not it’s a bit of a weird coincidence.

It's Star Wars - the whole franchise consists of unlikely coincidences, which it has attributed to "The Force" since the very first film. I'm assuming this is supposed to be filed under the same heading.

monkey wrote:

Who was the glasses alien person fighting?

Some sort of trade union, or something. Can't argue - it was a dumb sequence which I largely assumed was there because they don't know what the Hell do to with the character, but had some sort of contractual agreement to keep her in. The trade union stuff was, I thought, a gentle dig at the whole prequel trilogy being about taxing trade routes, but it might just have been shit.

monkey wrote:

Why didn’t Admiral Lady tell people what she was planning?

Why would she tell someone who has just been demoted to Captain because he's incapable of following orders, her secret escape plan? And, of course, it turns out she's damn right, because the minute Poe does find it out, he blabs about it to Finn who in turn tells it to a traitor.

monkey wrote:

Why did the other one love Finn at the end? She’d known him about 16 hours.

Because she's clearly been obsessed with him for ages, long before they met. I would have been irritated had he reciprocated but he didn't particularly look like he did. (Though I predict a tedious love triangle in the next one.)

monkey wrote:

Couldn’t the First Order just call in some mid-range ships that could catch the Princess Leia ship?

Probably, but seriously, why bother? They have them where they want them, and they can't get away. By the time medium range ships have arrived, they would presumably have annihilated them already. Besides, Hux is an imbecile.

monkey wrote:

Some plank somewhere (the Guardian I think) was saying this was up there with Empire. Get out.

Agree that's ridiculous. As is all the "worse than the prequels" bollocks. It's far from perfect, but it at least does something vaguely different, and has some moments of genuine invention and beauty. (The mirrored cave, the splitting of the star destroyer, the salt planet...)

(Edit - Andy got there first, sorry.)

monkey

Boom! Double team.
Those replies are mostly fair enough. I concede I’m being overly critical of it. It did do some stuff well. It had a sort of unusual structure with its third act but then I’d be tearing it apart if it was a by-the-numbers, big explosion finale as well, or too much of a crib from Empire.

It had one main problem and that was that I didn’t really enjoy it. I like some right old shit so it’s not really a quality issue. It just didn’t get me on board with what it was doing.

Luke’s bits were really good and well done in retrospect. And yeah the kamikaze light speed bit was decent.

Blocks100

During the casino planet chase, I got a feeling similar to that which I got when watching the 'climatic' battle scene on the frozen lake in The Hobbit part 3 - which can be best summed up as ' I'm getting to old for this shit' Both franchises had been over-exposed, regurgitating the same old themes, and had simply gone on for too long. I was fatigued by it all.

And then I watched the battle with the Red Guard and I couldn't stop grinning.

So Star Wars, as is the case with this latest film, is still capable of enthralling me, but I found the attempt at levity at the start with Poe vs the Star Destroyer as beyond cringe worthy. Remember when Han went one-on-one with a Star Destroyer? He moved into attack position, disappeared from their scopes and then he 'floated away, with the rest of the garbage' - that's how Star Wars got the jokes in, not jamming puns into places where they shouldn't be.

But it's odd, because I did enjoy some of the more cookie elements. Luke tickling Rey with a blade of grass to simulate the force etc. For the record, I couldn't give a toss that we didn't learn the back story of Snoke before Ren offed him. 'Snoke' always sounded like a bad name for a villain from a Saturday morning kids cartoon show anyway.

Dinostar77

hylian_elf wrote:

I’m hoping they find a way to bring Snoke back without it looking like damage limitation/we made a mistake killing him off thing. He was the best thing about the film, alongside Driver. He could still be alive, but they really need to nail his comeback. “I know his every intent, I know his mind” etc could be taken to mean he knew what Ren was about to do but knows how to resurrect. Dunno.

If they don't bring him back, it will be a mistake, as George Lucas admitted killing off Darth Maul was.

Blocks100

Best way to kill a Sith? Chop 'em in half. Guarantees they won't be coming back.

[Deleted User]

I’m baffled why anyone wants Snoke back. Maybe I’m missing something from really only watching the films and not consuming anything else, but I couldn’t really give a toss about him as a character. He’s not remotely interesting. I spent TFA thinking, “Who the fuck is this guy?” He’s totally unnecessary.

And no, it wouldn’t be a mistake not to bring him back. Yes, killing off Darth Maul was a mistake, but that’s nothing to do with anything. If you bring people back from the dead, you cheapen death. Nothing is in jeopardy if people can come back from the dead.

Stopharage

Bringing Obi Wan, Yoda and (inevitably) Luke back from the dead hasn't cheapened death.

[Deleted User]

They’re still dead.

Rev

I have problems with this. How brave they were to do some things and completely scared to do others.

Can someone explain how the opening dialogue was in any way funny?

Here, hold for this message from your mum?
What the actually fuck off.

[Deleted User]

It was echoing back to Poe’s opening gambit with Kylo Ren in the first film; he’s the unflappable rogue who loves to undermine the srs bznz of Imperial oratory.

I laughed, although I felt they tried to run it longer than they were capable of sustaining it.

Blocks100

No, it was just shit.

Andy wrote:

Nothing is in jeopardy if people can come back from the dead.

Precisely. This ain't Game of fucking Thrones.

Rev

Andy wrote:

It was echoing back to Poe’s opening gambit with Kylo Ren in the first film; he’s the unflappable rogue who loves to undermine the srs bznz of Imperial oratory.

I laughed, although I felt they tried to run it longer than they were capable of sustaining it.

I totally understand what they were assuming for except the bit where they missed it being funny.

ShabbyMcCrabby

I think by saying they want Snoke back they mean that they want him to have been treated differently as a character this time around. I was a bit disappointed that they went from having him as a hologram in the first one (suggesting a level mystery as to who he was exactly, where he was, why wasn't he there etc etc) to Kylo just getting a lift to his head office. It was a bit, oh, he's just that dude in the chair. I didn't mind them killing him but I was also hoping to get just a bit more of what and who he was and why he's so powerful.

superflyninja

Andy wrote:

I’m baffled why anyone wants Snoke back. Maybe I’m missing something from really only watching the films and not consuming anything else, but I couldn’t really give a toss about him as a character. He’s not remotely interesting. I spent TFA thinking, “Who the fuck is this guy?” He’s totally unnecessary. And no, it wouldn’t be a mistake not to bring him back. Yes, killing off Darth Maul was a mistake, but that’s nothing to do with anything. If you bring people back from the dead, you cheapen death. Nothing is in jeopardy if people can come back from the dead.

well I for one want to know the back story of Snoke. How did he come to be head of the first order? He was clearly known to luke and Leia, how did he come to influence Ben solo? He looks old eniugh to have been around during events of the original trilogy,was he something to do with darth plagueis? I doubt we have seen tbe last of him.

Dinostar77

@shabby and @superfly +1

There is no big bad in this trilogy. Vader in the original and Maul/Palatine were the big bad in the pre-sequels. In this trilogy, Kylo Ren comes across as if he's suffering from teenage problems. Doesn't come across as the big bad at all. More a spoilt brat who has a temper issue.

The lack of the big bad in this trilogy doesn't help it at all. It was a huge mistake to make snoke a hugh heffner figure. I think the director wanted rid of him as a character.

It wouldn't have been too much of a jump to make snoke, darth plageius. He looks old enough and battle scarred enough. A few lines of dialogue could have explained that Sidious (palpatine), tried to kill him (as is the sith code). His withered look is due to the force lightning he was attacked with. So he goes into hiding, pretends to be dead.
During his exile he learn how to manifest force lightning so he could match Sidious in combat. However he doesn't get that chance because of sidious's death.

Its also hinted that plageius is responsible for the birth of anakin skywalker (immaculate conception). They could have easily made it that snoke/plageius was influencing events from behind the scenes even when Sidious was around.

By having snoke/plageius as the big bad of this triology and a influence over the previous 6 movies could have been a huge revelation. It would have given so much more weight to the the final battle, when Ren and Rey confront him in episode 9. Striking him down at the end of the trilogy could have either a) closed the door on the movies for awhile or b) give star wars a clean slate going forwards.

That's my two pence any way.

Moot_Geeza

superflyninja wrote:

well I for one want to know the back story of Snoke. How did he come to be head of the first order? He was clearly known to luke and Leia, how did he come to influence Ben solo? He looks old eniugh to have been around during events of the original trilogy,was he something to do with darth plagueis? I doubt we have seen tbe last of him.

Careful what you wish for, there's bound to be three more sideflicks to episodes X, XI and XII.

Rev

Kind of disappointed they decided poe and Finn weren't hooking up. Bringing a woman into any film to be the love interest is lazy af.

Knights of Ren not being there / erased didn't phase me, as they were only visions but again could have been something cool.

I like how the fight has moved from huge villain snoke to Kylo. I really like Adam Driver in this, and not having the big bad, challenges them to do something different.

I was looking for the kid with the broom but I didn't see him move it with the force. Maybe I missed something.

Poe has been reduced to an idiot. How anyone managed to get a shit performance from Oscar Isaac, ill never know.
Laura dern was decent. An actual leader figure who did some reason liked seeing her friends die before she took action.

I need to see this again. But it's a step backwards from what Rogue one achieved for me.

JRPC

I didn't really like it, but it's well above Rouge One.

Very glad Ahbrams is doing the 3rd though. TFA had soul.

Skondo

Of the new films this is the weakest by some margin.

Thing is, I’m not the target audience, perhaps that audience think it’s great.

Please kill Poe. Complete tit.

RamSteelwood

I'm still really bothered by this after a few days.
Picking holes in the film is easy, but it is in many films, including Star Wars. Andy and Tin's responses are fair enough in general, though I feel there are too many of those instances jammed into one film for me to understand the gushing praise it's received in some places.
For me it's the way they've changed Luke, and the way they treat certain characters basically undermines the achievements of the original trilogy. I think this movie is badly made in a way that it undermines a lot of the interesting things from TFA, but worse it also undermines and damages a lot of the original trilogy.

And so I'm bunkering down with my paranoid theory that these aren't really supposed to be sequels, that Disney decided to just stealthily remake the originals, calling them sequels and re-purposing some of the original characters, to avoid the inevitable internet outrage there would have been if they'd said "we're remaking star wars with a girl".

Just reconsider these new movies without the numbers in the titles, and change the name of the Luke character to Yoda. They've split the original Luke into two people - Rey, and Poe (the hotshot pilot part). from there it's pretty easy to line up all the other characters and see where they've mixed up their purpose.

RamSteelwood

Just to add, I would prefer it they had just done that. I think I could enjoy TFA and TLJ much more on their own terms if they were considered as remakes and not straight sequels. They can change rules and play with conventions then without it impacting on the originals.

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