Little Rogue: A thread about Roguelikes, there will be Rogues, like, innit.
  • Rad is getting some good reviews.

    Whisper it, but I think I'd prefer it to Slay the Spire as there's more you can do with poor RNG in an action game than you can about getting a bad roll of the dice in a card game. Probably daft to compare the two but it kind of sums up why I'm not really feeling StS. Like, if I've not got the relics and cards to make a fist of it then it feels like I've wasted my time and it's not really my fault, but with an action game you can always fall back on your meagre skillz, and you at least feel like you had a shot.

    It’s not really true in StS though, you can win through playing well. It’s hard, but you can do it. The RNG aspect is overstated.
  • Paul the sparky
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    Must be a very small fraction of the time, and only after hundreds of hours practice. Even then, when you're not getting complimentary cards and relics there's not very much you can do about it is there?

    I'm speaking as a novice obviously, only had a few hours on it.
  • You definitely need practice, it’s a complicated game. The win rate for top
    players on regular difficult is something like 90%+, on Asc20 vs the heart it’s something like 40/50%, and they’re definitely not just getting lucky every other run. Pre-Asc20 patch I think Jorbs went on a 20 something win streak.

    As a novice every decision always feels like it’s influenced by RNG, but it’s like any other game - when you know what can happen you know what you need to prepare for and what you can do.
  • I can’t exactly say I am good at it, but if RNG were a huge factor, Face, Boris and Rouj wouldn’t have been able to rapidly climb the ascension levels in the thread.
  • Paul the sparky
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    Aye, but the top players on any game make your average Joe look a bit crap in comparison innit? And obviously if the skill level drops to mere mortal standards then the RNG will affect your run more, both for and against. When I won my first game I didn't think what a tactical savant I am, I knew it had been handed to me by getting the right combos of cards/relics/bosses to face etc.

    Climbing ascension levels I don't know anything about, couldn't you just mash your face against it time and again until the stars align? It's not like you have to do them in a row or anything is it?
  • You could mash your face against it but the RNG in StS isn't strong enough to pull you into a win situation. I think youd be looking at hundreds of runs inthe ascencion levels.

    You have to know how to build decks, what you're going to fight, how to make good choices, what routes to chase. There are too many moving parts for RNG to be the primary factor. Knowing your enemies, knowing what relics and what cards are good at any given time.

    I am not saying RNG can't hand you good combos like it did for you, because it can happen and god knows it has happened to me a few times, but you simply don't need those super powerful combos to win. You focus on core fundamentals and your deck stays strong.

    Certain things grease the wheels but the game incredibly well tuned, and you realise the more that you play that RNG just isn't a massive factor in determing if you win or lose. It's more about the decisions you make. The game doesn't often fuck you, due to the way handing out cards and potions works. The numbers are always ticking up to a good drop.

    The top players of things like StS are obviously on a different level, but the key to winning is still good decision making and critical thinking, which is far more within grasp of an average joe than hightened reflexes. I learned a lot watching Jorbs play, and even more when I did that ill-fated interview with him. It's a game where the fudamentals matter a lot more than the fates aligning.
  • Dark Soldier
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    I will say Spire is pretty heavy on RNG. I'm at ascension 11 with ironclad now and some runs can be ridiculously fuck you, other runs can be ridiculously heroes a free win.

    Any fucker can be high ascension on it, it just takes.time.put in, like.any game. Even if you learn zero eventually you'll have that run that massacres everything.

    Of.course the top top.players like jorbs can do insane things on the game. Like any top player of any game. And of course there are aspects to learn.

    But there is a shit ton of rng too.
  • It’s there, I just think it isn’t the defining factor of winning or losing.
  • Hi there, Spire is not RNG heavy. I have spoken from my ivory tower.

    RNG is more likely to reward you with a sick deck than n it is to hamper your run in this game. Imho.
    Don't try and place me in a box, you cocks. If there's one thing I'm not, it's fucking rectangular.
  • Bump because I saw 2 interesting Rogues on steam this morning.
    Curse of the dead gods. Focus interactive, which is neither a sure sign of quality or trash.

    https://youtu.be/57tvlAQ36hE

    And Savage Vessels.

    https://youtu.be/EpKUmMcXLM4

    I have no further info on either, have seen nothing, read nothing. Anyone else?

    I'm still great and you still love it.
  • So this is a potentially interesting one that's due out next week on PC and Switch: One Step from Eden.

    It's a StS style deck builder, but it's also a grid-based shoot 'em up.



    I've got a review code and just had a first go. I'm not sure how well it'll works in terms of having to keep an eye on what cards you've got lined up while also watching the grid, but it's certainly intriguing.
  • So I've been playing One Step from Eden quite a lot this week, and it's actually pretty damn good.

    At least, it's eventually pretty damn good. Because it's also pretty damn difficult and has a particularly steep learning curve, which doesn't ease you into the tricky balance of simultaneous bullet hell style dodging and deck management.

    For a while I was despairing at the insanity of what it was asking, but then I unlocked an alternate loadout for the starting character which gives you a slow down time weapon and since then it's all started to come together. Honestly that really should have been the default.

    Anyway, now I've unlocked some other characters and plenty more cards, got the hang of the attack patterns and started to memorise the card icons and it definitely works. I even reached the final boss on one run earlier, which never seemed possible a few days ago.

    If you can tolerate the early difficulty until you've unlocked more options, it's well worth it.
  • Well, nothing but time for some folks.

    May as well get gud. ;)
    I'm still great and you still love it.
  • One Step from Eden is a goodie, aye. Single dev as well, I think.
  • Yeah one step from Eden is getting good reviews
    3ds: 2878-9640-1728

    PSN: derekg
  • I still haven't finish it even once. It's definitely a bit too tough for me. But I keep going back.
  • Is that on switch Jonb?
    3ds: 2878-9640-1728

    PSN: derekg
  • I had a quick go and found it very confusing
    3ds: 2878-9640-1728

    PSN: derekg
  • Yes, on Switch. And yes, it's a difficult one to get your head around to begin with. It's something that just gradually becomes more natural over time as you start to recognise everything quickly and learn how it all works.

    I can try and explain anything if you need, as it leaves a lot for you to work out yourself.

    To start with, when you get artifacts (passive abilities) it's usually good to grab more max mana or mana regen if it's available, as it'll help you cast spells quicker.
  • I was told that a patch should come at some point to make it easier. Hopefully it happens because the difficulty is the only real issue for me.
  • so you would recommend?
    Unfortunately I am generally quite shite at games
    3ds: 2878-9640-1728

    PSN: derekg
  • I mean, I like it, but it took a good few hours to really get into the swing of it, and even now it's tough, so take that into account.
  • I'm probably gonna wait on it until the patch. Looking at the reviews they're super positive, but people are pointing out that the speed of the game makes any kind of card strategy redundant. Is that something you've experienced Jon? Or do people just need to get used to how it plays so that they can autopilot some stuff while thinking about the cards?
    Don't try and place me in a box, you cocks. If there's one thing I'm not, it's fucking rectangular.
  • It's not redundant, as there are clearly mechanics and synergies in place that you can exploit. It's never going to be as tactically deep as a turn-based game, of course, because you don't have much time to think. It's a case of learning to recognise everything instantly and knowing when to hold certain cards back or get into a certain position before using them, and eventually that becomes second nature.

    You can also choose to 'focus' on certain card classes, which increases your chance of them dropping, so you can kind of direct your build to, say, make it more likely you'll get poison cards or whatever. And there are plenty of classes with different effects that can change how you play. Once you've unlocked quite a few cards and got into that it gets more interesting.
  • Argh! I'm so on the fence!!!
    Don't try and place me in a box, you cocks. If there's one thing I'm not, it's fucking rectangular.
  • Tried two Rogues today.

    Mana Spark. Pixel art on the low end side. Didn't really give it a super chance, but meh. Top downish, OG zelda angle, you shoot bows. Aim with right stick, move with left. Just not enough charm/instant anything to get me going. Anyone else given it more time. I'm willing to believe there's more to it.

    Book Of Demons. Now this is interesting. Clearly been around a while and iterated. Seems to be set up to be either Diablo or pure roguelike. Iso view Darkest Dungeon with very different movement. Way to early to say, but seems to be slick as hell and with a bunch of neat ideas, even just one level past the tutes.

    I think some others have dabbled. @tempy, maybe?
    I'm still great and you still love it.
  • I've played Mana Spark but it sounds like I gave it a similar amount of time to you. Was 89p on Switch, and it felt far better than the (semi regular) budget price suggested it should be, but at the same time....nah. There's not enough time in the day to devote the hours required to above average roguelikes imo. Probably would've been a word-of-mouth hit on XBLA a decade ago, but the bar has been raised substantially in recent years.
    Joustus is served.

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