Icons of the 20th Century - The Bear and Badger

davyK

This is a series that started on BBC2 last night.

Each episode covers an area of endeavour (sport, explorer, leaders, entertainers etc) and highlights 4 people with a vote to pick which goes into the final.

Sport last night presented by the ever dependable Clare Balding.

There are 2 that spring to mind for me : Ali and Pele

That fact that they are identifiable with a single word kind of makes my point. They were of course included,

My problem is I find it hard to think of someone else - Jesse Owens maybe. Or Olga Corbett / Nadia Komanenche perhaps. We are talking iconic here.

And of course it's BBC so who did they add to the list?

Billy Jean King. I almost switched over. The Battle of the Sexes match did seem to put womens sport on the map though. But Tennis? Really?

Then they went for a female para-Olympian for the 4th slot. I can't even remember her name. I gave up at that point and switched over.

Do you see where this is going? They seem to have ticked all the boxes.

We are talking about icons here.

They really should have left it with Ali and Pele. Maybe if Oscar Pistorius hadn't blotted his copybook he could have had a spot.

But the inclusion of the other two has invalidated the whole exercise for me I'm afraid.

Anyhow - opinions welcome.

Yossarian

I’m all up for ‘box-ticking’. Representation is important and it doesn’t come about by accident. Well done to the BBC for searching out people who may be icons to marginalised groups even if they are less well-known to the mainstream.

afgavinstan

I personally feel there should be a few asterisks on Pele's records.

davyK

Drawing up a list of 4 is going to be controversial but really? Icons of the 20th century? In Sport?

There are other categories in which marginalised groups have champions. I'd argue for sport to have less and other cats to have more. Sport can cut across and be highly influential of course - I get that. I suppose they have 2 slots to make up the numbers so they may as do that I guess.

[Deleted User]

davyK wrote:

But Tennis? Really?

Why not tennis?

Yossarian

davyK wrote:

Drawing up a list of 4 is going to be controversial but really? Icons of the 20th century? In Sport?

There are other categories in which marginalised groups have champions. I'd argue for sport to have less and other cats to have more. Sport can cut across and be highly influential of course - I get that. I suppose they have 2 slots to make up the numbers so they may as do that I guess.

I’m sure that people looking at those other categories could argue the same.

Personally I’d simplify it by not having sports as a category.

Frosty

I watched Battle of the Sexes last year and Billie Jean King seems brilliant

davyK

Frosty wrote:

I watched Battle of the Sexes last year and Billie Jean King seems brilliant

She is. I remember her golden era at Wimbledon. My problem is putting anyone up in the same level with Pele and Ali I suppose.

Kow

Frank Zappa would be my vote for icon of 20th century.

davyK

Andy wrote:

davyK wrote:

But Tennis? Really?

Why not tennis?

It smacks of elitism to me and simply doesn't have the global appeal. Maybe I'm expecting too much.

Pele and Ali could have gone anywhere in the world and been known.

davyK

I think I may agree with @Yossarian - maybe sport was a bad choice.

Too many sports require resources to be universally appealing. Football, boxing and athletics cut through that. Again I'd say Pele and Ali should be in there as icons but perhaps the problem is with using categories.

mistercrayon

Yeah Billie Jean King and Tanni Grey Thompson are worthwhile on that list. There is a lot to be said about elevating an entire class of people who for large swathes of the 20th century and earlier were not even counted as real people to a certain extent.

I would have voted for Grey Thompson, for what it’s worth, out of that list.

Recognisability is a slippery slope - you’re looking at Donald Trump, Kardashian Clan and pewdiepie being top on those terms.

[Deleted User]

davyK wrote:

Andy wrote:

davyK wrote:

But Tennis? Really?

Why not tennis?

It smacks of elitism to me and simply doesn't have the global appeal. Maybe I'm expecting too much. Pele and Ali could have gone anywhere in the world and been known.

What? So, sporting icons can only be from sports you deem to be popular enough and accessible enough?

In other news, I looked it up. You don’t know who Tanni Grey-Thompson is? Mkay.

Frosty

Maybe this was one for 101 Things that get on our tits but Quorn't actually matter in the slightest

Billie Jean King was probably more recognisable to Americans than Pele if that helps.

davyK

Pele played in the US and started Soccer as a viable sport there.

davyK

Fuck me I'm out of touch.

[Deleted User]

davyK wrote:

Pele played in the US and started Soccer as a viable sport there.

BJK effectively started professional sport for 50% of the planet’s population.

davyK

Andy wrote:

davyK wrote:

Pele played in the US and started Soccer as a viable sport there.

BJK effectively started professional sport for 50% of the planet’s population.

Bobby Riggs set up the famous Battle of the Sexes match though. Could argue he created the platform. At 55 he wasn't going to win.

Frosty

LivDiv

I think it depends what we are talking about in terms of "Sports Icon".
King and Owens are really iconic because of their political impact rather than sporting prowess. (not that they were slouches)

Then do we ignore the likes of Maradona because he isn't liked here? It is hard to argue he isn't iconic.

What about Bolt? Multiple WR holder, household name, could be recognised in silhouette doing his famous stance. Surely he is an icon of sport?

Usual BBC audience crap. If it didnt happen in the 70s or isn't related to the war it didnt happen.

[Deleted User]

davyK wrote:

Bobby Riggs set up the famous Battle of the Sexes match though. Could argue he created the platform. At 55 he wasn't going to win.

Jesus Christ, Davy, way to miss the point.

Pele didn’t set up the North American Soccer League, either, did he?

mistercrayon

Bolt is 21st century at least.

davyK

btw - I'm not belittling anything BJK and Thompson have achieved - just while I was consciously watching the show they started with ALi and Pele and I was thinking who else is included - those 2 weren't on my radar.

Reading the posts here I can see now why they are included. I don't know enough about para-olympics though I thought Pistorius had an iconic quallty. Such a pity how that ended up.

I still can't get past the iconic status of the first two though. But maybe that's because I was younger in that era.

davyK

Andy wrote:

davyK wrote:

Bobby Riggs set up the famous Battle of the Sexes match though. Could argue he created the platform. At 55 he wasn't going to win.

Jesus Christ, Davy, way to miss the point. Pele didn’t set up the North American Soccer League, either, did he?

Ack I know - I realised that as soon as I posted.

davyK

LivDiv wrote:

I think it depends what we are talking about in terms of "Sports Icon". King and Owens are really iconic because of their political impact rather than sporting prowess. (not that they were slouches) Then do we ignore the likes of Maradona because he isn't liked here? It is hard to argue he isn't iconic. What about Bolt? Multiple WR holder, household name, could be recognised in silhouette doing his famous stance. Surely he is an icon of sport? Usual BBC audience crap. If it didnt happen in the 70s or isn't related to the war it didnt happen.

Quite. Maradona did spring to mind for me. Bolt too. Jesse Owens is a huge omission. To put it to the Reich in their back garden in front of the world. Quite something.

The brief seems to be how they impacted on society though.

LivDiv

mistercrayon wrote:

Bolt is 21st century at least.

Shit, yes forgot about the 20th century bit.
In my defence I still think 1997 was a few years ago.

davyK

Didn't realise - all the candidates are on the BBC website now. Thought they would have appeared as the weeks went by.

You have to register to vote.

monkey

I do think the show is a bit stupid. One whole category for explorers, but artists and writers are lumped together. Musicians have to compete with actors under the one category of Entertainers but sportspeople get their own category. Then they all go into a battle royale where you have to choose between Ali and Einstein and Churchill (or whoever wins those categories but it's always those guys in these things).

davyK

Yikes.

I'm late to this party. Some winners below:

Bowie for entertainer (thought Chaplin might have swung that)
Shackleton for explorer (though Scott )
Turing for scientists (a hero of mine but hard to believe Einstein didn't win that)
Mandela for leader - against Churchill, Thatcher and Roosevelt.

davyK

monkey wrote:

I do think the show is a bit stupid. One whole category for explorers, but artists and writers are lumped together. Musicians have to compete with actors under the one category of Entertainers buts sportspeople get their own category. Then they all go into a battle royale where you have to choose between Ali and Einstein and Churchill (or whoever wins those categories but it's always those guys in these things).

Quite. Done that way for the box ticking agenda I'd argue.

LivDiv

I'm astonished Churchill didn't win. (Not that he would have got my vote)
He won that "Greatest Brit" thing a few years back.

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