Level Design
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  • I watch about three hours a week of youtube/twitch watching the best 2D Mario players (Dode, the Beast, Grand Poo Bear and CarlSagan) beating very difficult levels. Some of these are on Mario Maker and some are full Rom Hacks created by the Super Mario World community which has been active for years and years. These levels are to the even seasoned players, incredibly hard. They will use techniques (or glitches) which only expert and dedicated players will know or be able to pull off. This is just what I like to watch because I know i'll never be that good but pushes the game and players to the limit. 

    MM has been out for about 4 years now and level creators are trying harder and harder to create levels which are difficult to beat and will challenge the player. Some creators are brilliant at creating but can't play for toffee so create "dev exits" in their levels which are very hard to find doors which they can use to take themselves to the end of the level and complete it (a requirement on MM to upload). But as creators made harder and harder levels, so came trolling.. If you want to make it hard for a user to beat a level, kill them without warning. This reminds me of games like Rick Dangerous on the A500 where you basically had to learn life by life where all the traps were. Few were possible to know before they happened. Creators started implementing troll elements to their levels, an example might be a flying fish entering the screen giving you miliseconds to react and move. Or off screen thwomps craching down and killing you as you pause for what looks like a complicated section of the level. 

    But players got wise to these and started playing to adapt to things like this. Some troll moves are deemed more ok than others. Like there's an ethics behind setting a player up to fail or not. 

    Fast forward two years to the last 12 months and the players are now asking creators to make whole levels of troll set ups - called Troll levels (see what they did there?). Troll levels are levels designed to play with the players psychosis. Give the player learnt behaviour then fuck them. Some of it I fall for as a spectator and some of it is absolute genius. 

    The latest technique is called CP1 Trolling. CP1 stands for Check Point 1. In long levels on MM players put check points in to make it easier for the player. It means if a player dies they return to the check point not the start so not to repeat long parts of the level. However, players have created a system of level design now where they will set traps to make you fall into CP1, so you may get to CP3 or CP4 and be near the very end of the level but enter a pipe and end up back at CP1 which means you have to redo all of the level again. So it's actually been turned into a negative to have CP1 as opposed to a good thing meaning you don't start from the beginning. The setup's for CP1 are so fucking clever, using previous trolls or normal mechanics to fuck you when you least expect it. 

    An example, hopefully you can picture this. You're big Mario, there are spikes two tiles up so you know if you run into them you'll shrink to small mario. On the floor are 4 tiles wide of ice bricks so you know you could slide under the spikes. At the end of the ice bricks is a pipe. You run along, hold down to duck and slide under the spikes (to stay as big mario) you slide, slide, slide, still holding down, go over the pipe and then boom, go down the pipe because you were still holding down. Next thing you know the pipe drops you from the ceiling onto CP1. Back to the beginning again! This video has some clever setups to do this.  




    So when left to our own devices in MM creators have ended up trolling the player for fun. Other clever designs involve creating escape the room type levels, using codes and such. 

    If you could design a level in a game, which game would you love to design a level for? What would it be like and why?
    He could've just said they came from another planet but seems keen to convince people with his bullshit pseudoscience that he knows stuff. I wouldn't trust him with my lunch. - SG
  • I've designed RPG games before. That's all I'd be interested in on the design side of things, frankly.

    So, um. I guess I'd like to do Baldur's Gate 3. World design rather than 'levels' I guess,
  • I'd love to have a go at a run n gun game based on Rush'n attack / Green Beret the premise of which is so simple it would always be about speed runs for me. I wouldn't have the foggiest how to do this mind!
    Live, PSN & WiiU: Yippeekiyey
  • If I had a level designer's brain, I'd put together a dungeon in Link's Awakening. It wouldn't have any side-scrolling bits because that's the only thing in the game that doesn't make it perfect.
    3DS friend code: 2809-8024-1882
    AC: New Leaf: James (Ardis) 
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  • That's a hard agree.
  • Unrelated to your question MK, but the idea of "troll levels" has had its own game genre for a while. Stuff like

    I Wanna Be The Guy
    I Wanna Be the Bosy
    Sybon Action
    Aban Hawkins and the 1000 Spikes
  • I have a wonderful idea for a real life game but have never dare tell anyone before this.  Basically you take a field and a group of grown men, say around 22 or so, who chase around this field moving a large ball with their feet and sometimes their heads but never, ever their hands.  The idea is that these men have to kick the ball into a rectangular shaped frame thus scoring their team of 11 a point which, for these purposes, we will call a “goal”.  They will carry out this endeavour for about an hour and a half but if this proves too much i think i may allow a 15 minute break at the halfway point.  I will call this halftime and this will be the point where the players of the game will be able to re-energise and (ha!) power-up, if you will.  After the full hour and a half the team with the most points or goals will be the winner and move onto the next match victorious with the losing team probably also getting to have a bash by playing someone else too.
    I know it sounds simple (and probably really fucking stupid to most of you) but i plan to make things a little more complicated and add a little nuance to the game by allowing one person on each side to USE THEIR HANDS (this will probably be the one who is the least able to move the ball with their feet because of erm, irony).  I’ll also probably let a couple of players on each side swap in and out if someone gets too tired or injured or something but it’ll take me at least 60 years to bring this in despite it being COMMON FUCKING SENSE to most casual observers.  Further depth will be added by a cheeky rule i like to ‘call off of the side’ which is mysterious to all but fans of my new, un-invented, game.  Higher level players will probably end up getting rich in years to come but I’m gonna add in hurdles along the way like casual and accepted racism, horrible violence, perils abroad such as spit-roasting young fans on your camera phone and discussing terrible world events and laughing whilst getting pissed.  I will call my new and as yet uninvented game.  Bally bally foot man (for it shall be only men who can play this game for at least the first 100 years of its development because this will sit nicely alongside the racism).
  • I'm not really sticking to the MO here (because it's more of a game concept than a level) but I had this dream once of a very surreal game - think a self-contained planet from No Man's Sky with the sort of stuff people are putting together in Dreams - were you could play any track you like and the world would react to the music in real-time. There was no endgame or point to the game apart from looking at stuff. Pretty sure it would get boring after five minutes. Wonder if there's anything like it out there though...
    3DS friend code: 2809-8024-1882
    AC: New Leaf: James (Ardis) 
    Wii U: BennyProfane
    Switch: SW-4893-5168-5693
  • Skerret
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    I have a wonderful idea for a real life game but have never dare tell anyone before this.  Basically you take a field and a group of grown men, say around 22 or so, who chase around this field moving a large ball with their feet and sometimes their heads but never, ever their hands.  The idea is that these men have to kick the ball into a rectangular shaped frame thus scoring their team of 11 a point which, for these purposes, we will call a “goal”.  They will carry out this endeavour for about an hour and a half but if this proves too much i think i may allow a 15 minute break at the halfway point.  I will call this halftime and this will be the point where the players of the game will be able to re-energise and (ha!) power-up, if you will.  After the full hour and a half the team with the most points or goals will be the winner and move onto the next match victorious with the losing team probably also getting to have a bash by playing someone else too.
    I know it sounds simple (and probably really fucking stupid to most of you) but i plan to make things a little more complicated and add a little nuance to the game by allowing one person on each side to USE THEIR HANDS (this will probably be the one who is the least able to move the ball with their feet because of erm, irony).  I’ll also probably let a couple of players on each side swap in and out if someone gets too tired or injured or something but it’ll take me at least 60 years to bring this in despite it being COMMON FUCKING SENSE to most casual observers.  Further depth will be added by a cheeky rule i like to ‘call off of the side’ which is mysterious to all but fans of my new, un-invented, game.  Higher level players will probably end up getting rich in years to come but I’m gonna add in hurdles along the way like casual and accepted racism, horrible violence, perils abroad such as spit-roasting young fans on your camera phone and discussing terrible world events and laughing whilst getting pissed.  I will call my new and as yet uninvented game.  Bally bally foot man (for it shall be only men who can play this game for at least the first 100 years of its development because this will sit nicely alongside the racism).
    you're fuckin nuts

    Skerret's posting is ok to trip balls to and read just to experience the ambience but don't expect any content.
    "I'm jealous of sucking major dick!"~ Kernowgaz
  • GooberTheHat
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    I know, why would you have rules?
  • mk64 wrote:
    If you could design a level in a game, which game would you love to design a level for?

    Take a guess.
    I am a FREE. I am not MAN. A NUMBER.
  • No, Story of Thor
    I am a FREE. I am not MAN. A NUMBER.
  • Ok, in case you can't guess, it is/was Zelda. 

    There was a competition run by, I think, NMS around the time of Link's Awakening; to design a Zelda dungeon. Can't remember what the prize was. A mate and I entered. 

    It was, in many ways, typical Zelda dungeon design including different coloured switches and block-pushing puzzles. But I also included a puzzle or two that required you to pay attention to the environment. Clues were dotted around the dungeon, hidden in plain sight, and you need to notice out of place stuff or patterns etc. 

    We didn't win. Probably cos it was shit.
    I am a FREE. I am not MAN. A NUMBER.
  • Was your dungeon the shape of the thing that it was supposed to be? Like how Face Shrine was the shape of a face? That's how you win.

    Anyway this reminds me that, as a kid, I used to draw level designs and bosses for all sorts of shit. Zelda, Sonic, JRPGs that I had invented based on Final Fantasy. Back then I wanted to get into game design so much, every waking moment was spent sketching ideas and stories and shit. What happened eh?
  • Tempy wrote:
    Was your dungeon the shape of the thing that it was supposed to be? Like how Face Shrine was the shape of a face? That's how you win.

    Yes it was! Maybe that unoriginality wasn’t what they wanted. ‘Just another Zelda dungeon’ they thought.
    I am a FREE. I am not MAN. A NUMBER.
  • Don't worry.
    I used to send stuff to Art Attack as a kid. I was pretty fucking good in my pre-teen years. Never got anything on TV.
    Much better than the absolute shite that made it onto the show.
    Fucking shysters.
  • I think I got on Tony Hart's Hartbeat once
  • I also designed a level in my own game...

    Well, it was a prototype level. Consisting of just a square room with nothing in it. And coloured cricles just randomly appearing from the sides. And they aim for your bigger coloured circle player-'character'. Which you move and barge with to kick coloured-circle ass. And you had a score and counter and health and super meters (just numbers really) and also... a nasty bug that I gave up on trying to resolve.
    I am a FREE. I am not MAN. A NUMBER.
  • I used to enjoy designing scrolling beat 'em up characters in the very early 90s. I'd give them names I thought suited their spikey mohawks and spikey leather gilets (like Goltar and Rattler).
  • Tempy wrote:
    I think I got on Tony Hart's Hartbeat once
    Congrats. That was always more discenring.
    Man I would binge Hartbeat now to chill, he is was our Bob Ross.
  • Hart and Ross were also in the military, interesting coincidence I guess.
  • Oh, totally forgot that I did a couple of levels in Halo 3 and Reach‘s Forge modes. 

    They were the worst levels ever.
    I am a FREE. I am not MAN. A NUMBER.
  • Dark Soldier
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    Tempy wrote:
    I think I got on Tony Hart's Hartbeat once

    alright greengrass
  • Who created Teh Awesome on Halo 3?
  • That was great.
  • Was it the one he made in 4 where it started you in mid air?

    I remember barely being able to play for the laughter that errupred at half the party forgetting to use their jetpacks.
  • Yeah, that was it, must have been in 4.
  • Tempy wrote:
    Was it the one he made in 4 where it started you in mid air? I remember barely being able to play for the laughter that errupred at half the party forgetting to use their jetpacks.

    Hah. That was amazing. Miss that. So hectic and bonkers.
    I am a FREE. I am not MAN. A NUMBER.
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