Social media and discussion - A Musky odour - The Bear and Badger

b0r1s

GurtTractor wrote:

Reasonability can probably be part way defined, as something that has reason behind it, such as a scientific theory that is based on evidence and consensus. No one person or group should 'decide' what counts as reasonable for everyone else, it should be an interconnected system of rigorous assessment.

Which leads us back to a lack of critical thinking in current culture and popularism, in some part exacerbated by social media, being the truth. The solution does come back to education, but also comes back to curbing the impact social media has on society and personal wellbeing. Neither of those are going to change in this generation. Until people can look back and say look at all the harm this created, which we are rightfully doing now, society as a whole will not until the "bad" has reach some sort of critical mass.

GurtTractor

Yossarian wrote:

Okay, but you have to remember that there are large armies of misinformation networks out there that will be working in concert to push their own ideas and will be looking for ways to game any system that’s put in place. If you can think of something that accounts for that, fair play to you, I can’t.

Do you have draconian laws in mind as the counter to this or just no clear idea of a solution?

There are technical solutions being worked upon, and I think both technology and general education will have a part to play. If there are targeted laws against organised misinformation that can't be abused for limiting legitimate dissent then I would be ok with that.

Yossarian

I have no clear ideas for a solution, but forcing social networks to take what is being published on their platforms seriously would be a good first step.

GurtTractor

dynamiteReady wrote:

I'd noticed that some of you have referenced the Parler situation. What do you think of the Facebook / Google / Apple ban? Do you that's fair?

I don't have a particular problem with Parler and Trump getting nuked by all these platforms, it seems fair given the circumstances. But I do think we should be worried by how easy it is for corporations and banks to deplatform and cut funding support for something, it's all well and good when it's against something awful, but the same tactics could just as easily be used against some other entity they don't like. Again, careful now.

dynamiteReady

GurtTractor wrote:

dynamiteReady wrote:

I'd noticed that some of you have referenced the Parler situation. What do you think of the Facebook / Google / Apple ban? Do you that's fair?

I don't have a particular problem with Parler and Trump getting nuked by all these platforms, it seems fair given the circumstances. But I do think we should be worried by how easy it is for corporations and banks to deplatform and cut funding support for something, it's all well and good when it's against something awful, but the same tactics could just as easily be used against some other entity they don't like. Again, careful now.

+1

GurtTractor

https://www.coe.int/en/web/media-freedom/-/press-freedom-must-not-be-undermined-by-measures-to-counter-disinformation-about-covid-19

I therefore urge all Council of Europe member states to preserve press and media freedom and ensure that measures to combat disinformation are necessary, proportionate and subject to regular oversight, including by Parliament and national human rights institutions. Measures to combat disinformation must never prevent journalists and media actors from carrying out their work or lead to content being unduly blocked on the Internet. Those countries which have introduced restrictions that do not meet these standards must repeal them as a matter of urgency.

poprock

Parler was specifically created to attract the people so nasty they had been made unwelcome on other networks. I have no problem at all with it being ignored/deplatformed.

As with many of these arguments – Parler has been deplatformed by a bunch of private companies, who are free to gatekeep their own systems however they wish. Apple, Amazon, etc are under no obligation to give anyone a voice. They’re businesses, not public commons. They can make editorial decisions if they want to.

Brooks

I thought that was Gab? It's all so confusing!

poprock

What’s Gab?

poprock

Spoiler:

GurtTractor

This paper I linked previously has studies relating to Gab and Incels. I hadn't even heard of the former.

dynamiteReady

Brooks wrote:

I thought that was Gab? It's all so confusing!

poprock wrote:

What’s Gab?

Just another Twitter rival in the mould of Parler, that was also courting arseholes to build it's userbase.

It's a bit like how Both Signal and Telegram have been shadowing WhatsApp for a few years now, but no one, including myself, had ever heard of them until recently. Now that Facebook have reeled in WhatsApp, people/users are looking at both Signal and Telegram as a target for migration.

I digress.

It looks like people are converging on Signal. Word of mouth, and a genuinely Open Source development model have made it easy for nerds to sell to their friends and family.

It's something to watch, because if an Open Source tool like Signal can really supplant something as ubiquitous as WhatsApp, ~~that might be a first~~ it would be a very rare event in this New Media era (only Wikipedia comes to mind, as a popular and successful webapp, run communally. No matter what snobs think of it).

Roujin

It does seem to be the case that platforms who advertise themselves on their free speech policy seem to just attract rightoids en masse who then just spend their time on the platform plotting to overthrow the US government or being racist.

poprock

Probably worth remembering that WhatsApp really gained traction when used as a secure messaging tool by dissenters during the Arab Spring. And now it’s the privacy-stealing demon child of Facebook.

Yossarian

Didn’t help much in Egypt. The state just shut down the internet.

poprock

Yup.

My point was that tools change purpose and evolve - often into exactly what they initially railed against.

“Luke, I am your father.” etc etc.

GurtTractor

Apparently Signal is the new WhatsApp successor, open source and run by a non-profit. I haven't had a proper look at it yet so I would do some research, but if it checks out I'll switch and try and get people on it.

dynamiteReady

Well, amusingly, prompted by Poprock's Arab Spring factoid, I'd just learnt that Signal was set up by a co founder of WhatApp.

Yossarian

Signal’s good, there’s been a bit of a changeover to that owing to WhatsApp’s new terms of service, but most of my communication continues to be through WhatsApp as that’s where my contacts all exist.

I’m not too bothered, however, as those new terms of service don’t apply in the EU or UK because we have regulations in place to prevent the tactics that Facebook are using in the rest of the world to force WhatsApp users to share data.

Go regulation!

g.man

I've had Signal only phone for maybe a couple of years now. Nobody uses it.

GurtTractor

It's in the news a fair bit right now so if it all seems solid then now's the time to nudge people over.

Yossarian

Tried, failed beyond a couple of people.

g.man

Why would people leave WhatsApp when they're perfectly happy with it?

dynamiteReady

Most of this social media shit passes me by.

I only installed WhatApp to pull.

Heck, I'd even put off buying a touchscreen phone, until I got laughed at on a date.

GurtTractor

Because Facebook is shit I guess. Regulations or not I wouldn't trust them whatsoever at this point. But yeah if people are fine with it it's not like I would push hard or anything, just a speculative nudge.

mk64

all my friends who have moved from whatsapp over the last couple of years use telegram. It was wikr for a bit but now telegram.

dynamiteReady

g.man wrote:

Why would people leave WhatsApp when they're perfectly happy with it?

I've avoided Facebook from the very start. The contact list on my phone is one of the most personal data sources I maintain. Technically, through WhatApp, I'd be giving them that cherished contact list for free.

So on principle, I want to switch. I'm not exactly an avid socialite anyway.
But convenience and practicality pushes me to stay on it.

I'm resolving to close my WhatsApp account by the end of the month, and use the time to think about what that means, while seeing how many people also switch to Signal.

It's slow going, but a few of the people I keep contact with, have done so, with some random new users prompted by people in their own circles. So it's encouraging.

I think it's all quite cutting edge, tbh.

Must be how those Parler users felt, until FAANG stomped it out.

dynamiteReady

Forbes article on WhatApp/Signal/Telegram:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2021/01/14/3-things-to-know-before-quitting-whatsapp-for-signal-or-telegram-or-apple-imessage-after-backlash/?sh=163d1e5164f6

Unlikely

Useful article, thanks.

GooberTheHat

GurtTractor wrote:

Apparently Signal is the new WhatsApp successor, open source and run by a non-profit. I haven't had a proper look at it yet so I would do some research, but if it checks out I'll switch and try and get people on it.

It's good. It's what I would recommend.

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