Social media and discussion - A Musky odour
  • GooberTheHat
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    Apparently Signal is the new WhatsApp successor, open source and run by a non-profit. I haven't had a proper look at it yet so I would do some research, but if it checks out I'll switch and try and get people on it.

    It's good. It's what I would recommend.
    Wickr Me is better if you want properly private, secure messaging, but it's not as easy to use, or necessary for most people
  • GooberTheHat
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    That confirms what I was saying about the vulnerabilities of telegram the other day. I wasn't sure if they'd fixed them but it appears not.
  • Escape
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    Re: prohibition, banning rightwing platforms is a smart way of fostering leftwing support for corporate powers to set that precedent. Because the rightwingers are, by and large, less of a threat to them.

    I've never dug into whether the hemp story's true because it doesn't matter to me either way, only that I find it very easy to believe. Even if it's bollocks, I rate its plausibility as... high.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marihuana_Tax_Act_of_1937
  • I was listening to an interview with Joscha Bach, very interesting stuff about minds and consciousness. Just had a look on his Twitter to see if he was sharing other interesting ideas (basically my primary use of Twitter is to occasionally check in to look at a handful of people's feeds for this), and he's also on a bit of a social media tip atm with typically Twitter-esque pithy statements, and some longer threads that remind me how silly the format is -

    fOCSRxt.png?1

    I don't 100% agree with everything but it's worthwhile thinking about regardless.
  • I use Wickr for certain things but msgs expire so it's not likely to replace WhatsApp or similar, I like to check old conversations sometimes. I do see Telegram being mentioned in some circles but I've never tried it and it's hard to see any of these overtaking WhatsApp. Then again, people probably thought the same about MySpace.
  • Interesting.  More of my contacts are on Signal than Telegram.
  • dynamiteReady
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    nick_md wrote:
    I use Wickr for certain things but msgs expire so it's not likely to replace WhatsApp or similar, I like to check old conversations sometimes. I do see Telegram being mentioned in some circles but I've never tried it and it's hard to see any of these overtaking WhatsApp. Then again, people probably thought the same about MySpace.

    Message expiration is optional on Signal.
    Not a feature I'd have clamoured for, but nice to know it's there.
    "I didn't get it. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, you fucking do your thing." - Roujin
    Ninty Code: SW-7904-0771-0996
  • dynamiteReady
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    Also, all the panic has forced Facebook to push WhatsApp plans back to May:

    https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/15/22233257/whatsapp-privacy-policy-update-delayed-three-months

    Not sure if that's good or bad for Facebook, but Signal still looks worth switching to.
    "I didn't get it. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, you fucking do your thing." - Roujin
    Ninty Code: SW-7904-0771-0996
  • Crosspost from the politics thread -

    I've started off and have been trying to continue talking about the nature of discourse in terms of the wider context, not particularly in here or other relatively private or very small groups. While the B&B is in theory open to the public it's more or less private in practice, and I really don't think the tone of convo here matters too much generally.

    I've also delineated between the voters and those in power several times, my points have mainly been about how we talk to our fellow average human. I agree that we want to be focusing on holding those in power accountable for their actions. Bickering amongst ourselves only increases division and weakens our ability to focus on and tackle the real evil doers.

    I completely agree with you that we need to be able to vent, internally and with other people as a way of expressing and dealing with frustration. Obviously catharsis can be helpful by definition, but if we are not at least a little bit careful about who is around or where we do this we can alienate others and make the problem worse. I've never said that all political or similar discussions have to abide by some set of rules or be completely reasonable, as you have said there is a time and a place.

    The open part of my one little comment up there is important, if you express your understandably intense frustration towards the public somewhere where people you don't know will read it it's likely to land or be understood quite differently than if you do so amongst friends and people you've spent a fair bit of time with. The scale of the internet means that comments shared to even relatively small platforms are likely to be read by hundreds of people.

    Perhaps the most important part of what I've been saying is that putting hate out to average folk who's voting habits or ideas you hate isn't just ineffective, it can be actively harmful. It is very likely to increase overall polarisation within communities until they split off into more tolerant groups that echo complementary ideas.

    I started talking about this in this thread because the topic came up, and because for a while now I've noticed how vicious and polarised discussions all over the web have become. Of course this isn't a recent phenomenon - https://tedium.co/2020/10/13/eternal-september-modern-impact/  And I have a strong feeling that this is something we really have to recognise and deal with if we are to have a hope of coming together and dealing with the really big problems in our world, it doesn't seem like we can always rely on our leaders and representatives for this sadly.

    To reiterate one more time because I know someone will misinterpret - I'm not criticising this forum or anybody here, I'm making a general point about something I see as a big problem. Keep in mind that all this is my way of venting, I find it cathartic to try and understand problems and think of possible solutions. No one else has to do this, but I would love to hear any constructive input. I'll put this in the Social Media thread as all this is only partially relevant here.
  • Imo the discourse in discussion is powered by rightwing media literally assaulting the blue/white collar attention span. Think tabloids, think breitbart, think social media algorithms amplifying the stuff 1000x. This is deliberate and well funded by conservative billionaires.

    Like Gurt said, tweaking the algorithms or demonitising social media is one option (unlikely, because eyeball industry). Another option is regulation, a social media clamp down on hate speech, racism and overt discrimination. This works, as seen in the case of Trump's social media ban. It's not ideal but it saves a lot of people from getting radicalised by fake news, right wing poison and propaganda. Also, law is the only way the billionaires will comply. Take away their hate mongering megaphones and you will see almost instant result. Cause and effect, imho etc.

    People may complain about muffling freedom of speech yaddiyadda, but freedom of speech isn't intended to be abused in this manner on such a global scale. Fuck up their internet broadcasting + amplifying scheme and the polarization will dissolve almost instantly.
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  • https://mindmatters.ai/2020/07/multiverse-physicist-max-tegmark-seeks-ai-that-checks-news-bias/
    There are these projects aiming to improve the quality of the news by having humans go in and fact-check and flag problems. But if you look more closely, you will see that some factchecking sites find 95 per cent of errors in media outlets on the left side of the political spectrum, and other ones will only find errors in the media outlets on the right. It’s unclear exactly what criteria they use.

    We decided to build something entirely automated. It’s a work in progress, but we use machine learning to classify news articles on all sorts of different metrics: by the topic that they are about, whether they are left or right, pro- or anti-establishment, in-depth or quite breezy, more inflammatory or quite nuanced. The tool is a bit like Google News, but with a bunch of sliders underneath, so you can adjust for what you want to read.
  • https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jan/22/google-threatens-to-shut-down-search-in-australia-if-digital-news-code-goes-ahead

    Kinda feel this goes here. To my mind, I think there is problems in this aussie rule but there is some merit to it to. Very curious what others think. Generally anything that makes Google and Facebook throw toys out of the pram is worth looking at.
    SFV - reddave360
  • Having to pay a corporation to link people to something just seems like bullshit. Google and Facebook are monstrous in their own ways but I can't see how that is reasonable. Just tax the fuckers and put the money to good use like education rather than giving big new corps the dough.

    Maybe I'm missing something here, but this just seems like big corps fighting each other over a slice of the pie, I struggle to muster even a partridgeshrug.
  • https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/21/22243468/google-threatens-to-remove-its-search-engine-from-australia-if-new-law-goes-into-effect
    Google’s got some notable allies who agree with that: Sir Tim Berners-Lee, the creator of the world wide web, submitted his opinion (see number 46 here) that “the Code risks breaching a fundamental principle of the web by requiring payment for linking between certain content online.” Vint Cerf, another founder of the internet who helped design TCP/IP, shared similar thoughts with the Committee, though it’s worth noting he currently works for Google as its Chief Internet Evangelist.
    To the Senate Standing Committee on Economics,

    I am grateful for the opportunity to make a brief submission for the Committee’s consideration, as it conducts its inquiry into the proposed News Media and Digital Platforms Mandatory Bargaining Code.  I write in my capacity as the inventor of the World Wide Web, which I invented in 1989, first developing an information management system and then implementing the first successful communication between a Hypertext Transfer Protocol client and server via the internet.  The World Wide Web is now accessed by more than half the world’s population, including an estimated 21 million Australians.

    My comments do not address the entirety of the proposed Code, but are limited to the area where my perspective is most relevant.  Specifically, I am concerned that the Code risks breaching a fundamental principle of the web by requiring payment for linking between certain content online.

    On the web, the sharing of content rests on the ability of users to do two things: to create content, typically text but also other media; and to make links in that content to other parts of the web. This is consistent with human discourse in general, in which there is a right, and often a duty, to make references.  An academic paper is required to list references to other papers which are related.  A journalist is normally required to refer to their sources.  The discourse of bloggers involves links from one blog to another.  The value of the blog is both in the text and in the carefully chosen links.

    Before search engines were effective on the web, following links from one page to another was the only way of finding material.  Search engines make that process far more effective, but they can only do so by using the link structure of the web as their principal input.  So links are fundamental to the web.

    As I understand it, the proposed code seeks to require selected digital platforms to have to negotiate and possibly pay to make links to news content from a particular group of news providers.         

    Requiring a charge for a link on the web blocks an important aspect of the value of web content.  To my knowledge, there is no current example of legally requiring payments for links to other content. The ability to link freely -- meaning without limitations regarding the content of the linked site and without monetary fees -- is fundamental to how the web operates, how it has flourished till present, and how it will continue to grow in decades to come.

    Like many others, I support the right of publishers and content creators to be properly rewarded for their work.  This is without doubt an issue that needs addressing, both in Australia and around the world.  However, I firmly believe that constraints on the use of hypertext links are not the correct way to achieve this goal. It would undermine the fundamental principle of the ability to link freely on the web, and is inconsistent with how the web has been able to operate over the past three decades.  If this precedent were followed elsewhere it could make the web unworkable around the world. I therefore respectfully urge the committee to remove this mechanism from the code. 

    With many thanks for your kind consideration.

    Tim Berners-Lee
  • Would this apply just to Facebook and Google? Or would an aggregator like News Now, or that one posted by Gurt above have to pay?

    It's a ludicrous idea and I hope it fails.
  • So many companies tried this in the early days of the (popular) web. Terms and conditions that said you had to seek permission from them before you could link to their site. It didn’t work then and it won’t work now.
  • There needs to be a dramatic rethink about how to make money from the web, advertising can get in the bin. There have been ideas for a robust micropayment system in the past - https://evonomics.com/beyond-advertising-micropayments-sustain-new-internet/  Not sure how I feel about the idea, but I can imagine a reasonable implementation of such a thing being very useful.
  • A sketch for micropayments

    Last time, we examined many past approaches, like making MP part of an existing commerce mediation company like PayPal or Amazon, already set up to bill your credit card account. Online news junkies might sign up with a business that interfaced with hundreds of publisher websites. By click-opening an article, a reader triggers the automatic debiting of 1 cent to $1. If a reader is disappointed by the item, under a certain threshold of time, he or she clicks “CANCEL.” Or you might choose a smaller, partial payment… or else slip the seller a bonus, if you really liked it.

    This single silo approach has advantages. One company might make lots of money by convincing all sellers and buyers to use it as their central nickel and dime exchange, as is being attempted right now by Blendle. Parallels with iTunes and Spotify come to mind. But those silos help customers to curate a specific kind of product – music – a simplicity that helps keep customers “resident” within the company’s paywall.

    One variation would be to keep each item or article behind a micro-paywall as customers click interest, adding cumulatively up to a set threshold. When the number of potential customers reaches a trigger point, the price suddenly goes to zero; all those contributing during the mandatory pay period could be listed as sponsors. Those who are first to pay get future discounts and recognition, not only for promoting the article but for helping make it free for those who follow.

    Is that the promised Secret Ingredient? In fact, I don’t favor it much, nor the silo model. Neither method looks far enough ahead, to the coming era of an Internet of Things, when information “providers” and “customers” will include vast arrays of trillions of machines, sensors, distributed components, all of them needing and offering data. In that coming era, information exchanges and transactions will parse extremely fine, swapping nano- or even pico-payments for every datum exchanged, perhaps resembling the way each of us “pays” the sensor cells in our fingers by providing them with nutrients. Under those conditions, if some giga-corporation or government winds up mediating and controlling this maelstrom of rapid contracts and interactions, the silo approach will be a surefire ticket to Orwellian nightmare.
  • Fuck a paywall.
    Come with g if you want to live...
  • Yeah my strong preference is for information to be free, it's tough to square that with a monied world where people need to be paid for stuff though I guess.

    I think one of the big problems with some kind of micropayment system is that you really need to get everyone on board with it, all at once. Otherwise it would add too much friction and people would just click off. Like I said I'm not sure if I like the idea.
  • The problem with it is it's a fucking paywall.
    Come with g if you want to live...
  • It’s a bad idea. It restricts the web to those who can afford it, even more so than now. Fuck that right in the eye.
  • This is good - Banning Trump won't fix social media: 10 ideas to rebuild our broken internet – by experts

    And this seems like a very fine thing - https://santaclaraprinciples.org/  Principles for accountability of platforms; Numbers, Notice, and Appeal.
  • poprock wrote:
    It’s a bad idea. It restricts the web to those who can afford it, even more so than now. Fuck that right in the eye.

    I agree, I'm just not sure what an optimal situation looks like for the internet. Advertising can be really evil, so I wouldn't mind substantial regulations there so as to make it something individuals can have control over. I've no idea how really.
  • Declining trust is both a cause and an effect of polarization, reflecting and giving rise to conditions that further compromise our confidence in each other and in institutions. These effects are especially apparent in our digital gathering places. To remain in favor with your in-group, you must defend your side, even if that means being selectively honest or hyperbolic, and even if it means favoring conspiratorial narratives over the pursuit of truth. In the online Thunderdome, it is imperative that you are not seen to engage with ideas from the wrong group; on the contrary, you are expected to marshall whatever power is at your disposal – be it cultural, political, or technological – to silence their arguments.

    In a pernicious cycle, these dynamics in turn give each group license to point to the excesses of the other as further justification for mistrust and misbehavior. It’s always the other side who is deranged and dishonest and dangerous. It’s the other side who shuts down criticism because they know they can’t win the argument. It’s they who have no concern for the truth. Them, them, them; not us, us, us. Through this pattern, each group becomes ever more incensed by the misdeeds of the other and blind to their own. The center does not hold.
    https://on.substack.com/p/society-has-a-trust-problem-more
  • Yossarian
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    Reads more like Substack getting excuses in for why they publish and don’t bother removing bollocks than a coherent argument that can be backed up with evidence to me.

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