Palestine and the Middle East - a thread
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  • Somewhere where we can discuss the ongoing shitshow in the middle East. It's not going to end any time soon.

    If you, like me, feel a deep seated existential hopelessness and dread about the slow genocide of the Palestinian people and don't know what to do - here are some organisations that you can donate to:

    https://www.map.org.uk/
    https://www.anera.org/
    https://www.pcrf.net/

    Were lucky in this cosseted Western world to never have to worry about the constant fear of airstrikes and drone attacks.

    Civil conversation only please.
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  • Nice one, Grem.
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  • Yep great work Grem.
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  • Whenever I've looked at live streamed footage like this something that stands out to me is just the ever present noise of the observation drones, at least that's what I'm assuming they are, these things maybe. It sounds like there's at least two just constantly circling the strip.

    I can only imagine the psychological effect hearing that must have, knowing that you're always being watched and if you look suspicious enough they'll happily send a bomb down onto you. Then there's the sound of the bombs themselves of course, awful traumatic stuff that everyone there has to suffer with and remember for the rest of their lives.

    The fore and mid ground is usually pitch black because they cut the electricity off, the lights in the far distance will be an Israeli city, Askelon I guess. Depends on where the camera is pointed.
  • https://spotify.link/KJoppFCX1Db

    Recent Chapo episode that talks about this. 20 years of the sound of drones in the sky, never knowing when they might drop a bomb. In what world does this create a generation of rational people? Hamas may well have committed a whole load of atrocities, which are abhorrent and inexcusable, but what else to they have?
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  • I get paid next week. I'll be contributing to something
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  • That’s a great list Grem, thanks.

    War Child may be worth considering as well, although they’ve been clear that right now they’ve not been able to do as much as they like because, well, their office in Gaza was bombed.

    https://www.warchild.org.uk/news/israel-and-gaza-territory-crisis


  • Whenever I've looked at live streamed footage like this something that stands out to me is just the ever present noise of the observation drones, at least that's what I'm assuming they are, these things maybe. It sounds like there's at least two just constantly circling the strip.

    I can only imagine the psychological effect hearing that must have, knowing that you're always being watched and if you look suspicious enough they'll happily send a bomb down onto you. Then there's the sound of the bombs themselves of course, awful traumatic stuff that everyone there has to suffer with and remember for the rest of their lives.

    The fore and mid ground is usually pitch black because they cut the electricity off, the lights in the far distance will be an Israeli city, Askelon I guess. Depends on where the camera is pointed.

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  • This apologist argument that it's not the Israeli people, it's the Israeli government is starting to get on my tits. At least with Hitler you could possibly understand the rise of the cunts in the face of such economic pain. WW1 reparations, Weimar Republic, maybe the 'winners' were equally responsible for WW1 etc. 

    This is an educated, wealthy nation bombing the shit out of one of the poorest on top of decades of abuse. It's unforgivable and they've had decades to elect someone who remotely thinks they might be wrong on this.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • To be clear, I'm not saying all Israelis are bad but when the majority are for so long it's time to get out the big stick and throw the carrot in the bin.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • The BBC seems to be receiving a lot of flak, primarily due to the “we won’t call hamas a terrorist organisation” editorial decision, which I’m not sure I care that much about (they surely are, after what they did, but do I need the bbc to tell me that?); but also as part of a wider “fucking mainstream media” backlash against early hospital bombing reporting.

    But I don’t really understand the backlash: they have published this as one of their top stories on the conflict:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67144061

    It looks like proper journalism to me. I must admit though, on the basis of the evidence they have gathered and the experts they’ve spoken to, it looks more like it wasn’t IDF? I’m also reading that true casualties are lower than the hundreds initially reported but cannot verify that at all

  • As horrible as the hospital bombing is it's still a distraction from the stats. And the stats are Israel kills way more people than the 'other team'.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
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    As I said in the other thread, it seems a bit weird to me that the same hospital was bombed in 2014 with the IDF giving exactly the same excuse that it was a faulty Palestinian rocket. That's not to mention the other hospitals that have been bombed by the Israelis, who claimed there were weapons in them. I think the high civilian casualty rate this time has caused them to deny it. They have had no qualms about bombing hospitals in the past, why would they now when they're on a huge killing campaign?
  • The Lemkin institute (who raise awareness of and try to prevent genocide) have called on the international criminal court to indict Netinyahu, following his now deleted tweet:

    "This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle."
  • I’ve spoken with the State Department official who’s resigned in protest against the Biden administration’s approach to Israel and its war with Hamas.

    Josh Paul headed the bureau that oversees arms transfers, and he said he could not support the US decision to keep sending weapons to Israel while it lays siege to civilians in Gaza, which is governed by Hamas.

    Paul told me he believed that Israel’s actions violated US legal provisions meant to restrict weapons sales to human rights abusers and those who broke international humanitarian law.

    He cited its weeks-long blockade of food, water and medicine to the enclave, the dislocation of hundreds of thousands of people and the killing of thousands more in bombing raids.

    Paul acknowledged that during his tenure he’d seen many military sales to Middle Eastern countries, such as Saudi Arabia, that had poor human rights records.

    But in those cases, he said there were “thorough policy discussions…literally years of debate within the administration” and then strong pushback from Congress.

    With Israel, “everything's just moving through as quickly as it can with no interest from either the executive branch or Congress in doing anything but rushing forward”, he said.

    Paul said the US government had a history of letting Israel off the hook for incidents that constituted a “credible gross violation of human rights” because of “political concerns”.

    “I think our mechanisms for determining violations are broken,” he said.

    He added that the historical record shows Israel’s military campaigns and what he called “collective punishment” do not ultimately lead to security or peace.

    The State Department said it was not commenting on what it called a “personnel matter”. But spokesman Matthew Miller said the administration was not concerned that it might be involved in possible war crimes by supplying weapons to Israel.

    “We expect Israel to conduct its operations in compliance with international law,” he said. “We will continue to deliver [those] messages to them.”
    - BBC

    "“I think our mechanisms for determining violations are broken,” he said." Yeah no shit.
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    Not touching this with a ten foot barge pole, except to say, here, in the Middle East, and the rest of the world… remember the forum rule.
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  • This apologist argument that it's not the Israeli people, it's the Israeli government is starting to get on my tits. At least with Hitler you could possibly understand the rise of the cunts in the face of such economic pain. WW1 reparations, Weimar Republic, maybe the 'winners' were equally responsible for WW1 etc.  This is an educated, wealthy nation bombing the shit out of one of the poorest on top of decades of abuse. It's unforgivable and they've had decades to elect someone who remotely thinks they might be wrong on this.

    Sadly the Israeli people, like the rest of the world have mosly shifted to the nationalist conservative right politically. It's basically a similar cycle like the one you described leading up to ww2. A burgeoning middle class, simmerin' tensions and growing resentment against an ethnic scapegoat, a growing dissatisfaction with national borders. All it takes is a spark, in this case terrorism to ignite the keg.

    It's ironic because the Israeli's have been on the other end of the stick in ww2. Without ww2, pogroms and the holocaust there would be no Israel. The US and europe will of course back Israel in their war because they literally cannot afford to lose military allies in the middle east.

    TLDR: Populist nationalist conservatism is shit. Dumb deadly shit.
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  • Genuine question re US/Western Europe's backing of Israel.  Is it to have a foothold in the Middle East or is it because there are many wealthy Jews in the west (or perhaps both)?
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  • A bit of both, I suspect.  Mainly the first point, but there are also a lot of influential Jews who have a big enough voice and hold over the governments.
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  • I suspect it's a bit of both. Mostly the foothold as the west fears an expansion of BRICS.
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  • As horrible as the hospital bombing is it's still a distraction from the stats. And the stats are Israel kills way more people than the 'other team'.

    Absolutely yes, but I’m specifically interested in this event as an organic social media story, influencing hearts and minds.

    Bombing hospitals is clearly a big fuck off no no, the fact than it’s a Christian hospital all the more inflammatory. The official narratives swirling around d the event are startlingly opposed, with no ground given to investigation, more fact gathering, nuance (and I don’t mean the main belligerents, I mean their supporters far and wide). One of these large groups is utterly wrong, the other utterly right about and event that can still shock a disillusioned and cynical public

    How this plays out is of big interest to me even if it ends up fizzling (which would be v much in interest of those who are wrong: less being held to account; and therefore could the fizzling itself be part of the PR strategy)

    Overall it’s just one small horrific part of the whole story but we all know that right?
  • I'm not sure I'm ready to believe this is chiefly about sinister Jews paying off specific administrators with their naughty Jew money.
  • Yes, there are some rich jewish people in the west but all the money in the world doesn't weigh up against the strategic and military geopolitical importance of the state of Israel. The west didn't support it's foundation because of feelings of guilt or 'rich jews'. It's because of safeguarding trade routes like the suez canal and the unfettered access to the potential of black gold.

    In our capitalist consumerist world, money (Big Business) makes the world go round.
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  • There are certainly pro Israel lobbying groups, but I don't think that this is the main reason for the backing Israel gets.
  • I linked this in another thread, but thought it was worth another post in here. This channel is the only sane place I've found for a deep dive into the current issues.

    https://youtu.be/AtsTsCFxrNI?si=jvRrM8E0CDZgHmrF
  • I've learned a very important lesson today, in that referring to Gaza as the world's largest open-air prison, implies that the Palestinians of Gaza are incarcerated for some kind of wrong-doing, when in fact they have done nothing wrong. So, I'll make sure to be annoying on social media and call that out.
  • In an Amercan context, it probably means you've been wrongly imprisoned, or are still in jail despite what you did no longer being a crime.
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    I suppose you could say that Israel are holding them hostage.
  • ZMM wrote:
    I've learned a very important lesson today, in that referring to Gaza as the world's largest open-air prison, implies that the Palestinians of Gaza are incarcerated for some kind of wrong-doing, when in fact they have done nothing wrong. So, I'll make sure to be annoying on social media and call that out.

    Is not the point of it being referred to as such meant to highlight that Palestinians are being imprisoned for being Palestinian? Has this come from a Palestinian movement? Or outsiders taking offense on their behalf?

    (Not meant to be accusatory, just seeking clarification and understanding)
  • I am seeing a lot of open-air protest footage on my Twatline, that's something.

    This is also something, but since the US admin is as contemptuous of voter opinion as ours...
  • Israel bombed a church btw
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