Work - The pros and the cons...
  • If it carries on go on the long term sick. Shouldn't be to hard to get signed off for a twinging back or signs of depression, check the depression thread for authentic symptoms.
  • No, they cannot enforce overtime (anything over 48hrs/wk) on you if you haven't agreed to it in writing.
  • n0face wrote:
    Join a union.

    What he said.  Really Moto, this is a no-brainer.
  • Moto70
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    No, they cannot enforce overtime (anything over 48hrs/wk) on you if you haven't agreed to it in writing.
    You're talking about Working Time Directive, even signing this doesn't mean you have to work the hours just that you agree to going over the 48 hours if you so choose.

    My issue is about working unpaid hours over those stated in my contract, if I work 48 instead of 40 then I have effectively lost either a day with my family or £96, I don't see how any company could expect that if their employees.

    Either way I'm just going to say do they really expect me to sign something so vague and take it from there.

    For the record who is the sign makers union!
  • Anyone can join unite, it costs £11 a month but it's worth it if you want to know the rules and have proper legal backing if it comes to a head.

    http://www.unitetheunion.org/default.aspx
  • Maybe a union can help - I paid into a union for years but it was all a little pointless for me because my employer was excellent, so I cancelled my membership.  If you sign a contract that states that your normal working hours are 40 hrs a week, even allowing that they may vary 'from time to time', and you can prove that you're then being routinely forced to work 48hrs+, then the contract is misleading.
  • Moto70 wrote:
    My issue is about working unpaid hours over those stated in my contract, if I work 48 instead of 40 then I have effectively lost either a day with my family or £96, I don't see how any company could expect that if their employees.
    Because you are on a salary, not wages.  There is a difference.  A salaried job means you get paid X amount a year to do your job.  If you have to work extra to get your job done, you have to work extra to get your job done.  You are not losing £96.  If you are losing a day it is because you are failing to get enough done, or they are expecting too much.

    You've been a bit daft to go into the job assuming things about your contract, and not chasing up an amended contract.  At a company where the bosses response to you not signing a contact is "we'll see how it goes" you've either found one of the best companies to work for, or one of the worst.  Crazy lady suggests it's the latter.

    I hope you can get something worked out.
  • I've done many different jobs in my time and I've never started work without being in possession of a contract signed by myself and my new employer.  In cases where they've tried to take liberties, I've waved the contract in their face and they're powerless to do anything about it.
  • I bet you literally did.
  • I started a new job a week ago. It's a small place and I've asked a couple of times for a contract. The boss initially told me there would be one waiting on my first day, then when I started, I was told it would be a couple of days. Then I emailed him about it and that aspect of the email got ignored. Not entirely sure what's going on there. 

    But I actually think I'm better off without one now. I'm not planning on staying that long so the more informal, the better. 

    As long as I get paid.
  • Well, not literally, mainly cos I could never find it.
  • Join a union. In case you might of missed that, JOIN A UNION. You need facts not friends on this one.
  • I really feel for you on this one mate.
    Gazelle is correct you really need to speak to someone who is experienced in this situation.
    I do find it incredible that in todays workplace that you can be bullied or forced with the threat of losing your job to work extra hours for no renumeration or time off in lieu and there is not much you can do about it.
    Being asked to do an hour here or there is fine but some people ask for several hours a day or even extra days, without even a thank you (it's happening where I am freelancing right now to contracted employees).
    I am a bit black and white in attitude in these situations, A boss pays me to do 'x' amount of hours per week. I do them.
    If I work extra, I want extra or time off, if I don't get it and they are being unreasonable/hard nosed then I decide how badly I need the job and would probably suck it up until I could find another one.


    I remember in one place we clocked in and out and for 10 months I didn't have a single lunch break as it was so busy. I also did overtime nearly every night (paid) and I would ring mrs panty's mobile to tell her I would be home late.
    One day the general manager walks in and says that the owner of the company has trawled through every phone number in the recent bill and singled out all numbers he thinks are private and "If people pay for those calls, then there will be no further action.", seriously.
    So my calls came to £11.60 (or something), I went into the bosses office with £12 put it on his desk and told him he could keep the change. I then took every lunch break, took anything that was of any use to me consumables wise (back in the day when CDRWs where expensive) and sat behind every night on the internet and clocked up overtime, until I found another job.

    Oh and because I had only worked there for 11 months I was not allowed to go to the xmas party.
    Live= sgt pantyfire    PSN= pantyfire
  • Jeez you northerners are lazy fucks. No offense.
  • Some of us put in 60-80hr weeks for a lot less than £25k.
  • I don't understand the obsession with hours.  Surely you're paid salary X to do job Y; and if you happen to be an astonishingly capable guy and can get it done in half the time, bully for you.  If you're a bit low-average, and need longer, well you either work longer or you get a job more suited to your abilities.

    Even if it's "crunch time," how can they arbitrarily say "work 60 hours this week!"  Surely it's just "get this work done by this day!" and you choose what you need to work?

    Much more efficient to just tell people to produce the work rather than being so specific about precisely when they need to be in the office.
  • That's all very well unless you don't actually work in an office job.  I'm freelance and get paid by the gig and will quite easily clock up 12hr+ days purely because I have to spend time not only preparing for and doing the work in question but also travelling all over the place to do it.
    I'm doing a gig in London next week for which I'll get paid about £150 (+expenses).  I'll leave the house at 8am and get home again at about midnight.
  • It's all relative. Bottom line is that nobody should work for free. 

    I'm at the mercy of suits – you know, project managers, producers, marketing managers, etc. If somebody down the line makes a promise to a client that job X will be available by day Z, without checking whether it fits into the schedule, that's when things get messy. 99 times out of 100, if it clashes with other work, they'll REFUSE go back to the client and explain the scheduling snafu, so the rest of the team has to pull fucked-up hours in order to meet deadlines. This way the suit looks great for delivering on time, client is happy, designers burn out, and industry standards get dropped fast.




    There's so much bullshit in our industry about 'good publicity' when doing a high-profile job for peanuts (or less). Too many managers will drop experienced guys for cheaper college-level (maybe!) staff because a: they're naive and b: they're cheaper. 

    Pay the man. Value the work. If you don't value the work, then you don't respect the employee. It's an ideal – I'm guilty of massive compromises on my part, but now that I have a family I value my time, my ability, and money so, so much more.

    Excellent rant here from Harlan Ellison, which seems appropriate.

  • Elmlea wrote:
    I don't understand the obsession with hours.  Surely you're paid salary X to do job Y; and if you happen to be an astonishingly capable guy and can get it done in half the time, bully for you.  If you're a bit low-average, and need longer, well you either work longer or you get a job more suited to your abilities. Even if it's "crunch time," how can they arbitrarily say "work 60 hours this week!"  Surely it's just "get this work done by this day!" and you choose what you need to work? Much more efficient to just tell people to produce the work rather than being so specific about precisely when they need to be in the office.

    I agree in principle but some comapnies, especially in design, see it is a free ride to take the absolute piss.

     Quite often the man hours were never there in the first place, sometimes down to greed, more often down to shit planning out of the hands of the person doing overtime (said shit planner is also often first out the door at 5 o'clock).

    It's a nice concept, Do job A by deadline, start job B. However it leads only to hard working people being taken for a ride.
  • Elmlea wrote:
    I don't understand the obsession with hours.  Surely you're paid salary X to do job Y; and if you happen to be an astonishingly capable guy and can get it done in half the time, bully for you.  If you're a bit low-average, and need longer, well you either work longer or you get a job more suited to your abilities.
    That assumes the workload given to each person is reasonable in the first place. It's the kind of thinking that's incredibly open to abuse by employers.

    My Dad used to work for BMW. His contract hours were something like 35 a week but to get the job done he'd always work about 50, and that's what was necessary to get the work done on time. Of course, he was in a fairly senior management role and got bonuses for completing projects so it was acceptable, but if you're on a flat salary that's not very high it's taking the piss.
  • My boss's boss tried to get me to work 8 hours on a Saturday for about 17 quidpounds sterling.

    Hah.
  • A job is just that, it's not your life, life is the stuff that goes on outside of a job and involves girlfriends/boyfriends, family, friends, interests and hobbies.
    Now I admit a job enables you to enjoy/afford those things but that's as far as it goes for me.
    I realise the case might be different for Elm, he is swooshing about the skies keeping us safe (not sarcasm) but for the other 99% work is a boring monotonous drudge, something you have to do.
    The less time I spend working and the more I get paid for the hours I actually do, the better, I am not an indentured slave, though you could argue with mortgages etc... we are.
    Live= sgt pantyfire    PSN= pantyfire
  • For a few of the posts here the idea of an internal SLA should suffice or already be in place
    Currently playing; Pokemon Lets go Evee and Clash Royale
  • pantyfire wrote:
    A job is just that, it's not your life, life is the stuff that goes on outside of a job and involves girlfriends/boyfriends, family, friends, interests and hobbies. Now I admit a job enables you to enjoy/afford those things but that's as far as it goes for me. I realise the case might be different for Elm, he is swooshing about the skies keeping us safe (not sarcasm) but for the other 99% work is a boring monotonous drudge, something you have to do. The less time I spend working and the more I get paid for the hours I actually do, the better, I am not an indentured slave, though you could argue with mortgages etc... we are.
    Or you could get a job that you actually enjoy?
    Work-life balance is important, whatever you do, but no reason why both parts of your life can't be rewarding and fulfilling.
  • Agree with Igor there.

    The flip side of the shite OVT for me is the fact I work with genuine mates (lived with 2 of them).
  • Moto70
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    I wouldn't dream of criticising those of you that choose to, or a happy to, work for nothing so I find it slightly disrespectful to have it implied that those of us that are given unreasonable deadlines aren't capable enough to do the work.

    My issue is simple, I am contracted for 40 hours, if you want me for more than that then you pay for it as I can bet my life that if by some miracle something happens to allow me to get the work done in 30 hours I won't be given 10 hours a week off and nor would I expect it.
  • ...but by your own admission you are not contracted to work forty hours per week. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have never signed any contract at all since starting this job. If this is indeed the case then I think you'll be lucky if they don't just fire you and get some other poor bastard in to do the hours they want. You seem to be on rather a sticky wicket here.

    good luck

    g.man
    Come with g if you want to live...
  • Moto70
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    I had a verbal agreement for 40 hours, that is as good as a written contract os it should be as good as a written contract.

    There are still people on hourly and think that's why us on salaries are getting the shit but I will stand my ground even if it costs me my job...
  • You shouldn't need anyone to tell you that a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's not written on.
  • ...a mini rant
    Or you could get a job that you actually enjoy? Work-life balance is important, whatever you do, but no reason why both parts of your life can't be rewarding and fulfilling.
    It's not really that simple though is it?
    I am aware there are people on the forum with jobs they thoroughly enjoy (are you a musician or a scientist or something - I can't recall?), but in my experience those that do enjoy their jobs or workplaces, even their bosses are very few and far between.
    All kinds of social and economic pressures mean the vast majority of people are stuck in jobs they don't enjoy, it's a bit disingenuous to say "Just find a better job."

    Moto70 wrote:
    I wouldn't dream of criticising those of you that choose to, or a happy to, work for nothing so I find it slightly disrespectful to have it implied that those of us that are given unreasonable deadlines aren't capable enough to do the work. My issue is simple, I am contracted for 40 hours, if you want me for more than that the you pay for it as I can bet my life that if by some miracle something happens to allow me to get the work done in 30 hours I won't be given 10 hours a week off and nor would I expect it.
    I agree with you here, on both paragraphs.
    Maybe it is an age thing, when I was younger I worked just as hard as I do now but I was more inclined to stay behind for free etc...Now with age and several jobs and types of boss under my belt I am far less inclined to be doing something for free.
    Lets not forget you are making money for your boss/company especially if you are super busy.
    If they aren't making enough money to afford additional employee but they are making you work extra hours then it's not really a sustainable business at the end of the day is it?
    Live= sgt pantyfire    PSN= pantyfire

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