Society's Ills - A study in the perceived inequalities between the "haves" and the "have nots"
  • @pantyfire is right, the American Dreams is frequently shown to be a crass fraudulent thing but a lot of people still honestly believe in it.
  • Effort minus guidance is fucking grim/hilarious to watch.
  • The whole luck aspect has always discouraged me greatly, also a lack of self worth I guess. There is a lass in my lit class who wants to write for Q in the future, she's a terrible sodding writer but she genuinely beleives she can get into Q so she's much more likely to than say, I, as i'm not confident i'm all that good (even though I know i'm better than her) and would never try, also fuck Q etc. This isn't the point of the original discussion but I like Panty's tangent.
  • I am very glad my mettle is very rarely tested.
  • Tempy wrote:
    The whole luck aspect has always discouraged me greatly, also a lack of self worth I guess. There is a lass in my lit class who wants to write for Q in the future, she's a terrible sodding writer but she genuinely beleives she can get into Q so she's much more likely to than say, I, as i'm not confident i'm all that good (even though I know i'm better than her) and would never try, also fuck Q etc. This isn't the point of the original discussion but I like Panty's tangent.

    I get that there may be something stopping you, but why not try? If you wanted to write for Q, at least get into touch with them and submit something.
    I'm falling apart to songs about hips and hearts...
  • I just can't stand this attitude of looking down on people, usually lower class, as if they chose to be poor and living in shitty council provided accommodation and are just too lazy to get a job and "sort their lives out."

    The current Tory manifesto of scroungers and strivers is disgusting.
  • ..
    Brooks wrote:
    I am very glad my mettle is very rarely tested.

    Mine is, turns out its tin
  • MattyJ wrote:
    Tempy wrote:
    The whole luck aspect has always discouraged me greatly, also a lack of self worth I guess. There is a lass in my lit class who wants to write for Q in the future, she's a terrible sodding writer but she genuinely beleives she can get into Q so she's much more likely to than say, I, as i'm not confident i'm all that good (even though I know i'm better than her) and would never try, also fuck Q etc. This isn't the point of the original discussion but I like Panty's tangent.

    I get that there may be something stopping you, but why not try? If you wanted to write for Q, at least get into touch with them and submit something.

    Fear of failure really, which is why I so rarely finish anything I ever write, or committ to writing for things like Popshifter with @chet. Also don't really have the 'creative commune' around me, and i'm the kind of guy who needs a few nods to really admit i've dun gud, as I'm heavily self critical, example: bricking it over 2 assignments in a row, convinced they were fails, when they both came back as distinctions. I am so happy for that, but part of me doens't think it's right.
  • It's just poor management of messages - make the statement "scrounging = bad" in a context where many are publicly obtaining material security for fuck all and many more aren't despite striving? Not gonna fly.
  • Fentonizer wrote:
    I just can't stand this attitude of looking down on people, usually lower class, as if they chose to be poor and living in shitty council provided accommodation and are just too lazy to get a job and "sort their lives out."

    The current Tory manifesto of scroungers and strivers is disgusting.

    I agree totally. I have more of a problem with those that make their money from the masses and then avoid to contribute towards the lives that helped them get where they are.

    I do have an issue with tempy. But we are going to counselling and we cried together for the first time recently.

    I'm sorry, but the ridiculousness of the situation this country is in makes me go and do some thing else..

  • Yossarian
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    Incidentally, I vote we have the word 'perceived' removed from the thread title.
  • http://www.allthatsleft.co.uk/2013/01/the-debate-between-scroungers-and-strivers-where-does-the-greed-really-lie/
    Sadly, what has happened in Western capitalism in the last two decades is that the money has not been particularly well redistributed – the wages of the poorest have not kept pace with the increases in profits and the result has been a widening in the gap between the richest and poorest, and subsequently a massive increase in personal debt as the poorest have taken out loans to supplement their disposable income. By failing to increase wages, we have also reached a tipping point where it has become too expensive for many people to take up jobs, mainly because of the crippling cost of housing and childcare – this isn’t a crime by those who have realised that it is easier to stay on benefits, this is a natural and understandable desire not to place their families into a position of poverty.
  • This isn't a democracy yoss.
  • I don't like that people "own" land then pinch earths resources and sell for profit. Its the most ridiculous extension of property that someone can own and sell stuff extracted from the earth.
  • Also I disllike the idea that successful people did so entirely on own merit and that everyone else is just not as hard working enough.
  • Also I disllike the idea that successful people did so entirely on own merit and that everyone else is just not as hard working enough.

    It's a really ignorant viewpoint that is close to people who just say fat people should simply "eat less." It's completely ignorant of the myriad issues that all play a part in someone's situation.

  • The world looks calm and flat from high up innit.
  • Yossarian
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    I don't like that people "own" land then pinch earths resources and sell for profit. Its the most ridiculous extension of property that someone can own and sell stuff extracted from the earth.

    I like the joke which I believe I heard from Stephen Fry on QI, but may well have been some other source which shows the ridiculousness of the situation:

    A man is walking across a field when a farmer runs up to him yelling 'get off my land'.

    'What do you mean, "your land"?' The man replies.

    'This land is mine, my ancestors fought and died for this land'. The man thinks about this for a moment and then starts to take off his jacket.

    'Fine, I'll fight you for it now'.
  • I do alright, and I'm a white, heterosexual, healthy male brought up with a mother and father with a modest income near a decent school.

    If I can do it, anyone can.
  • GooberTheHat
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    I know I will likely get shot down in flames as this is not researched, it is simply my opinion based on incomplete facts, half truths and my limited knowledge of the upper echelons of business and politics but here goes.

    The whole system is massively weighted in favour of the haves.  Companies are primarily only interested in making profits (obviously) but often with disregard to the people who ultimately generate those profits. Let's call these people the front line workers for want of a better term.  If a company is struggling to make a profit, or to make more profit than it did last year then the initial reaction is to cut the number of front line workers, or cut their wages, while the upper echelon workers are rewarded for the now increased profit margin with bonuses, despite having potentially made large numbers unemployed, all so they can keep the share holders happy. 

    Those that have can chose where they live, what school and university their children go to, they can be selective as to the social environment they want to be part of. Those that have not have no choice where they live, they live where they can afford, they have no choice as to their kids school, they must go where they can afford to live.
  • Fentonizer wrote:
    I do alright, and I'm a white, heterosexual, healthy male brought up with a mother and father with a modest income near a decent school.

    If I can do it, anyone can.
    The most marginalised group around, where's my leg up, my positive discrimination everyone else is handed it in a plate and I have to work for it.

  • You two can just up and join the Men Against Misandry though, fight back!
  • Money provides opportunity.

    There are undertones of people here suggesting that people can't get over the poverty gap. That's simply not true. I'm in the camp that if you want to do something enough (within fucking reason) then you can. It's only lack of knowledge, awareness or motivation which is the barrier. I know a lot of people from broken homes who have become successful and I know plenty of people from wealthy backgrounds who have flopped.

    Just don't be so defeatist.
    Currently playing; Mario Maker and Clash Royale
  • Unfortunately aside from anecdotal evidence this is not true.
  • mk64 wrote:
    Just don't be so defeatist.

    This can be the stumbling block, for a multitude of reasons.
  • Diagnoses of defeatism are really misleading. Even when it's valid, it's too simple.
  • It's bullshit that everyone who tries succeeds. A lot of people work very hard and a small number do well. Of course you can find particular individuals that 'bettered themselves', but that doesn't prove anyone can do it, no matter how hard they try.

    It's typical conservative get-on-your-bike nonsense that refuses to take a look at anything larger than the individual (despite apparently being so high up).
  • I fully see that some people have it easier than others but to blame society and your situation for not doing what you want (again within reason) is a cop out. Just yesterday I met an old friend from 15 years ago. Bumped into him on the platform in Wimbledon and he's a train conductor. He earns more than a lot of people we hung around with and lives his job cause he just reads books all day. How did he do it? Incredible focus brought on from having kids. Before that he freely admits he had no drive. He has no gcses either. Good on him
    Currently playing; Mario Maker and Clash Royale
  • What do broken homes have to do with anything?
  • It's typical conservative get-on-your-bike nonsense that refuses to take a look at anything larger than the individual
    I've often wondered about the source of that myopia. I should really read that Corey Robin book.

    It's probably about fear. It's usually about fear.

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