Was talking about the problems WWE have in terms of main event talent the other day, and it basically comes down to this: the Cena-Orton-Triple H era killed them. The over-reliance on them, and refusal to properly build new stars has lead to the current situation. Of the active talent (plus Triple H, as he could come back at any moment), these are the number of World Title reigns for multiple time champions:

John Cena - 16
Triple H - 14
Randy Orton - 13
Brock Lesnar - 5
Big Show - 4*
Sheamus - 4
Roman Reigns - 3
Jeff Hardy - 3
Seth Rollins - 2
Dolph Ziggler - 2

*Includes 2 WCW Championship reigns.

Two things immediately jump out - there is a huge gulf between the three mentioned before and everyone else - and there is a tiny number of champions. This makes building people up a lot harder, because there is no one established for people to beat.

Comparing Jinder Mahal to JBL, as it's a similar run. JBL beat The Undertaker, Booker T, the Big Show and Kurt Angle. Who is Jinder going to be able to take out to build credibility?

Diluted Dante wrote:

Was talking about the problems WWE have in terms of main event talent the other day, and it basically comes down to this: the Cena-Orton-Triple H era killed them. The over-reliance on them, and refusal to properly build new stars has lead to the current situation. Of the active talent (plus Triple H, as he could come back at any moment), these are the number of World Title reigns for multiple time champions: John Cena - 16 Triple H - 14 Randy Orton - 13 Brock Lesnar - 5 Big Show - 4* Sheamus - 4 Roman Reigns - 3 Jeff Hardy - 3 Seth Rollins - 2 Dolph Ziggler - 2 *Includes 2 WCW Championship reigns. Two things immediately jump out - there is a huge gulf between the three mentioned before and everyone else - and there is a tiny number of champions. This makes building people up a lot harder, because there is no one established for people to beat. Comparing Jinder Mahal to JBL, as it's a similar run. JBL beat The Undertaker, Booker T, the Big Show and Kurt Angle. Who is Jinder going to be able to take out to build credibility?

I wouldnt completely disagree with you but I dont think you have to have big stars to create new ones.It certainly helps, especially if the one you are pushing is a bit weak like JBL who didn't have the best matches. But the attitude era wasn't built on big names lying down for the new blood. Sure, Austin had HBK and Bret to pave the way for him but by the time he reached the top, both were gone and there was only Taker as a big name veteran (and the attitude era is probably Takers worst in terms of being a bit selfish and not being all that good in ring) Luckily Austin was backed by some hungry new guys who were let loose (key point that) in the likes of Rock, New Age Outlaws, Triple H, Mankind etc. Yes, he had the Vince character to play off and that cant be ignored but even Vince was technically a new character.

For me a big problem (especially with the Faces) is that so few are pushed properly. I dont mean "hey, Bray sure is good isn't he?" but actually letting a few guys go on a proper tear. When they have tried it, its worked. It worked for Ryback (before they realised he wasnt safe), it worked for Lesnar and it is working for Stroman. Compare how over the shield were as a group to now and then look at how dominant they were made to be. It's not complicated. I always wonder how over a heel Kevin Owens could have been if he had won the series of matches with Cena and then went on a further tear through the fed. 

I cant remember the podcast but one I was listening to made the point that the best pushed face at the moment is Shane McMahon. He doesnt take shit from the other guy, he answers back, he doesnt back down and he doesnt get out smarted.  If only they protected their other main event stars in this way.

RedDave2 wrote:

I wouldnt completely disagree with you but I dont think you have to have big stars to create new ones.It certainly helps, especially if the one you are pushing is a bit weak like JBL who didn't have the best matches. But the attitude era wasn't built on big names lying down for the new blood. Sure, Austin had HBK and Bret to pave the way for him but by the time he reached the top, both were gone and there was only Taker as a big name veteran (and the attitude era is probably Takers worst in terms of being a bit selfish and not being all that good in ring) Luckily Austin was backed by some hungry new guys who were let loose (key point that) in the likes of Rock, New Age Outlaws, Triple H, Mankind etc. Yes, he had the Vince character to play off and that cant be ignored but even Vince was technically a new character. 

For me a big problem (especially with the Faces) is that so few are pushed properly. I dont mean "hey, Bray sure is good isn't he?" but actually letting a few guys go on a proper tear. When they have tried it, its worked. It worked for Ryback (before they realised he wasnt safe), it worked for Lesnar and it is working for Stroman. Compare how over the shield were as a group to now and then look at how dominant they were made to be. It's not complicated. I always wonder how over a heel Kevin Owens could have been if he had won the series of matches with Cena and then went on a further tear through the fed.  

I cant remember the podcast but one I was listening to made the point that the best pushed face at the moment is Shane McMahon. He doesnt take shit from the other guy, he answers back, he doesnt back down and he doesnt get out smarted.  If only they protected their other main event stars in this way.

You don't need them of course, but it can make a massive difference. Remember when Austin came in he was paired with Ted DiBiase. He then won King of the Ring defeating Jake the Snake in the final, went into a feud with Bret Hart, had a four way match for the title with Vader and Taker as well as Bret, was in one of the most iconic segments ever in the Pillmans got a gun segment, when Brian Pilman was one of the most talked about people in the industry.

He had the famous match with Bret at WM13 which also featured the first in ring appearance of Ken Shamrock, which was kind of like if Connor McGregor turned up today, then went into the program with Taker. He then won the tag titles with HBK, and then Mick Foley.

Then came the Owen Hart match with the broken neck, which led into the Vince feud, and while Mr McMahon was a new character, Vince was known, and feuding with the boss is about as high profile as it gets. Before that though was the start of the Rock-Austin feud, when The Rock was emerging as the star of The Nation. He won the Royal Rumble to have a WM match with HBK, where Mike Tyson was the enforcer, winning the belt.

Jinder Mahal by comparison came in as The Great Khali's brother in law, feuded with Ted DiBiase (not that one), entered a weird feud with Ryback, moved to NXT, became the funny one in 3MB, 3MB then joined forces with Hornswoggle before he was future endevoured.

When he came back he lost to everyone, took part in the awful Enzo anger management stuff, which at least led to a brief pairing with Rusev then had a feud with Mojo Rawley. Then from nowhere entered and won a number one contenders match with Dolph Ziggler, Harper and Rowan, Mojo and Sami Zayn before beating Orton for the title.

I mean, Jinder is an extreme example, but I'm not against a sudden ascent. The problem is he's not got anyone really to go up against now. Most of that list I posted is on Raw.

The comments about people being pushed badly and the everyone fighting forever are sound complaints too.

Yeah, it's a ballache. I couldn't torrent it, try this.

The Vince thing is... weird. A billionaires idea of a face promo.

The greatest wrestling commentator. RIP.

Ah fuck, he's been very ill for a very long time, so it's not unexpected, but given how long he's soldiered on it kinda does come as a shock.

What can you say about him that hasn't already been said? A fucking legend. The best of all time at managing and commentating.

He had an absolutely perfect send of from WWE as well.



So before WWE absolutely destroy me with their tribute video, here is his Hall of Fame induction video package.



He's back with Gorilla now at the big commentary table in the sky.

Do you have the WWE Network?

Well if you have the network, that's the easiest way of watching any matches anyone can suggest.

As for Attitude era classics, there's not too many imo (I'm going by 1997 to around mid 2000) Dont get me wrong it was entertaining but it wasnt really until smackdown kicked in that the really good matches came along (radicals arrive shortly after, Foley and Trips move up to headline level and Rock hits full power)

That said....

Stone Cold vs Dude Love, Over the Edge 98 -  not amazing in ring (Austin is still suffering the neck stuff at this point I think) but its a very well booked Gimmick match

Rock vs Triple H (ladder match) Summerslam 98 - The first time H showed he could hang in the big time.

Rock vs Mankind, Rumble 99 - Hard to watch but pretty damn good all the same.

Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels - Badd Blood - Still the best HIAC match. Also, while not the best match ever if you have not seen Taker vs Mankind HIAC, you really should. Yes its 2 big bumps but the rest of the match is fascinating too.



And technically these falls into the smackdown era so not necessarily true attitude era in my eyes:

The Hardyz / Dudleys / E&C Ladder Series - starts with the No mercy 99 ladder match, also take in the table match between Dudleys and Hardys at rumble 2000, Ladder match between the 3 at Mania 2000 all the way up to the big TLC matches at Mania 17 and Summerslam 2001. 

Triple H vs Rock - Judgement Day 2000 - Iron Man Match. Crap ending but 59 minutes of awesome

Cactus Jack vs Triple H Series - Essentially you've got a Mankind/HHH cage match, a cactus Trips hardcore match, but then we get the big two - the awesome street fight at Rumble 2000 and the Hell in a Cell a month later.

Nearly any ppv Triple H main event from 2000 come to think of it.


Once 2001 kicks in there is a boatload of great matches. It was a good time...

Benoit - Jericho Ladder match - 2001 Royal Rumble

No way out 2001 I think. A belter alright

RedDave2 wrote:

No way out 2001 I think. A belter alright

Yeah that's it. Iirc, Angle hadn't held the belt long. I think the Rock must have acknowledged that he didn't really deserve to lose it, as Angle kicked out of the people's elbow and at least a couple of rock bottoms.

Probably ruined that one for you mk. Soz.

without thinking about it

Fav wrestler - brett hart
fav match - hulk hogan vs undertaker survivor series or brett vs mr perfect for the intercontenental
fam match type - cage match (fell in love with them because of hogan vs big boss man - suplex off the top of the cage and cut on the eye) and since then mankind and shanes crazy antics. Don't like ladder matches as they don't seem convincing when close at the top of the ladder.