Punching ozno in the fuck - boxing and MMA for girlie men
-
So I find a lot of the crap around UFC and Boxing ridiculous these days, and the extent of my knowledge is pretty much watching Cocky Fighters get KTFO vids on youtube, however, there is a part of me that's always fascinated watching cross discipline fights.
So here are my assumptions: confirm deny, especially @Escape, who I believe, has legit knowledge of boxing.
Mayweather is a wife beating A-hole.
They're both doing it for the cash, and Mayweather, in particular, is coming out of retirement for this. He's not late stage Ali but he's on the old side.
McGregor's style seems very Bare knuckle. Weird open stance that may suit UFC, but I wonder if his punches will have same impact in a boxing ring.
(I assume it's a straight up boxing match, so boxing gloves etc)
Watching vids of Mayweather, he looks like was a legit shithot boxer, and there's a clear difference between the speed and power the best boxers seem to get and non-boxers/regular joes.
So, predictos and thoughts. And while I think I've watched the shit out of most of the good youtube clips of knockouts etc, feel free to post your favs here.I'm still great and you still love it. -
Your analysis of the fight, the characters and the reasoning is spot on.
Mayweather will win handsomely.
Even ignoring the "element of surprise" that is supposedly McGregor's advantage, Mayweather is a a counterpuncher and a defensive master, so what does it matter?
It Floyd liked to go toe-to-toe then you'd fancy McG (lol) had an outside chance of getting a lucky hit or something (though knockout hits at that weight division are harder to come by) but that's not the case. Mayweather will spend a round or two working him out, learning how he telegraphs hits (and he will telegraph hits) and then take him out, age be damned.
Let me put it this way: yes, he's old, but remember all the greats who tried and failed to knock him out. The Pacman might have had a shot if their fight had happened a few years earlier (age was heavier on him than it was on Mayweather) but he was just one of many who thought they finally had what it took to beat him and were found to be sorely mistaken.
Mayweather is a cunt, but he's an all-time great of a cunt. -
Crossposted from the Sport thread because it was too good not to:
Escape wrote:Almost time for bigman @afgavinstan's fightmen. I done wrote this:
About a third of a boxer's skillset becomes redundant in MMA, but that's a third that McGregor doesn't have. Rolling has little use in MMA, so he's not used to bending his knees and moving his hips to sway when he's in the pocket; he's not used to distributing his weight over his legs in turn, coiling for shots, keeping distance, and staying side-on with his lead foot in good positions. Mayweather's gonna be able to turn him every which way for fun, despite his size advantage.
Boxers can rarely afford to load up for power-jabs in MMA (they're not familiar with checking kicks), but likewise, McGregor's used to fighting on his toes with a narrower stance. You need that fast mobility to stay on the outside. But when it comes to flat-footed power-punching out of a wide stance — turning his shots over with full-body snap, he doesn't have that. Using his shoulders, arms and gloves to block shots as he moves... And he fights with his elbows out and chin high, which is a massive no-no for a liver-exposed southpaw.
If I were in his place, I'd have begged Pirog* for a sparring crash-course, starting as soon as I signed up. That could've sorted out most of his bad habits. Confidence-building against the retired Paulie's not nearly enough. You don't win boxing matches with balls alone, and if that's all you have, you're in serious trouble against the highly skilled.
The nuances of boxing are usually lost in MMA, where feints aren't much good when your opponent's too far to bait, or just not experienced enough to recognise them. Feint a punch and he'll probably just back farther out of range, whereas in boxing he might be lured into a counter because he's far more inclined to stay in the pocket. Staying close because there's no fear of takedowns opens up a ton of nuance, and also — more so — because the ropes are a hazard by design.
And versus the cage, the ropes are the biggest factor for me. You can't use your back muscles to recoil off of them, relying mostly on your legs to do it, and they absorb bodyweight, so that saps your energy. Conor doesn't know how to tuck, tie, roll, or — and this is crucial — turn.
Turning's one of the last things you learn to do in boxing, because you have to be composed to time them. The aggressor's most aware of your desire to turn them at the start of their offence, so you've gotta deal with panic for long enough to time them. It'd help somewhat if McG fought with a Philly guard, but as it is he'll be in a world of trouble whenever he's backed up. Rope-a-dope worked for Ali because he was Ali; if McGregor tries an impression — with his chin available or elbows too high protecting it — he'll get torn apart. (To protect both and head and body, you don't alternate your guard — you bend at the waist into a tuck.)
Mayweather's survived the ropes hundreds of times, and the only thing that he maybe hasn't seen before is a kamikaze attack. One that would fail in all likelihood, leaving McG out on his feet. McGregor might scare Floyd once or twice, but that's as close as I can see him getting.
*Note how he positioned his left arm to avoid a clinch as he closed at 2:09; that was beautiful, and made to work by turning his opponent square to take away his righthand counter. There's yer liver shot at 2:18.
-
Facewon wrote:Mayweather is a wife beating A-hole. They're both doing it for the cash, and Mayweather, in particular, is coming out of retirement for this. He's not late stage Ali but he's on the old side.
Yes to all. But Mayweather's economical style's the best kind for older boxers (Bernard Hopkins and Archie Moore were elites into their forties).
I mentioned Pirog in the other thread, and if you watch Danny Jacobs punching air at the end of this...
It takes me right back to the first time I sparred a shorter, vastly more experienced kid who did the same thing to me. It felt like he was moving as soon as I started throwing, the cheater! Sod that for soldiers in MMA, though, right — you just plough in for a takedown. We were wearing 16oz gloves that time, but a word on that: 8oz boxing gloves aren't twice as padded as 4oz MMA gloves, just twice the weight, obviously. Because the boxing gloves have padding around the fingers and more around the wrist, the contact area's actually very similar. And boxing wraps are hard.
This is a fundamental that works against novices, because they'll throw their jabs from a fairly static position. The way around it is to get inside (so that your lead foot's to your opponent's inside), and roll (or find a way to achieve the same result) so that you start throwing your jab on the inside of your opponent's lead arm. The danger here — orthodox versus orthodox — is that you'll invite lead rights if you keep moving towards his rear hand to start your offence. Also, it makes your jab easier to parry with his right.
You can also pull your head back to make his jab fall short (with a great sense of distance and timing) and counter it with a straight right. That's a Mayweather trademark, and was famously employed by Ali. A really sweet way of blocking those rights is with a shoulder roll, which is another favourite of Mayweather's. Here's Pirog diverting a right and countering with a left uppercut as the other guy falls in.
If the right goes behind instead, it sets up the right uppercut.
Pause this at 0:48 and the right looks guaranteed, but nope.
One for you, Face: footwork. As Bernard says, if you see a weakness when he comes forward, let him. Vice versa if he crumbles when you go forward.
And that's the thing with throwing bombs as a novice — you tend to overreach and fall in behind them. Mayweather's overrated as an all-timer (he's avoided way too many for that; at least in their primes), but a lot of his best skills are too subtle for casuals to notice. As I said in Sports, the ropes are a serious threat to McGregor because they're alien to him. If you get trapped then your feet turn square, and you need tons of experience to avoid panicking. Here's Golovkin cutting off the ring with a righthand feint to reposition himself for a left.
This bit shows what I mean about positioning your lead foot on the outside for inside advantage, without walking onto a lead right (or left, in Proksa's case). It would've been hard for Proksa to throw a lead left there because Golovkin's left leg was inhibiting a full pivot, and a left hook would've been too late. Offensive switch-hitting requires good balance, and Golovkin's is superb.
Further to what Bernard says about flat-footedness, probably the hardest P4P puncher, Julian Jackson, had this to say.
Bernard's talking about Floyd here, but the creeping aspect applies across the board. I fully expect Mayweather to use this approach. (Except with Mayweather's left leg to McGregor's lead right.)
In which case, McGregor should tuck and close distance, looking to tie. But with his inexperience he might just stand there with his hands up, and that'll be that. The straight right from an orthodox boxer against a southpaw has always been effective. Oldman Hopkins dropped Calzaghe with one. If McGregor overreaches with his lead left, he'll end up in trouble like this. And that's pretty much how I imagine this match looking. -
Unless there's an explosive first round McGregor miracle, Mayweather on points. -
I've seen Rocky so Mcgregor will win (yes I know Rocky loses.) -
Mayweather lacks, and always has lacked, stopping power. McGregor may very well rush in and take a few hits, to land some nasty ones on Mayweather. Reach and power advantage and everyone knows the money can't take a hit. Although Mayweather will likely stand giving his opponent the back of his head. Then you could argue body shots may open him up. It is either going to be a brutal spectacle or more likely a defensive masterclass.
-
Body shots would be the tactic, but it was Hatton's game plan too and didn't end well.
I'd love for McGregor to win it though, everyone loves an underdog innit? -
Lord_Griff wrote:Mayweather lacks, and always has lacked, stopping power.
His last stoppage was against Victor Ortiz in 2011, but not having a KO record doesn't make him feather-fisted, it's just not his style to take chances. He hits hard enough, and he's accurate. (Ortiz riled him with a headbutt.)
everyone knows the money can't take a hit.
He's been rocked a handful of times in his long career, but never put down for a count. His only count was because he had sudden pains in his left hand and wanted the recovery time. Big-punching Mosley clocked him a few years ago and he took it (albeit with frantic clinching, but that shot would've floored most).
I don't like the man, but let's not make stuff up. -
I hope McGregor gets smashed to pieces in Round 1 so that all the jumped-up McGregor fanboys online rein in it; he wasn't the creator of fighting 4 years ago, his shitty suits aren't classy,amusing or particularly well made and the sooner he takes his tired circus routine back to MMA, the better. -
I think it'll be one of Mayweather or McGregor.I am a FREE. I am not MAN. A NUMBER. -
Escape wrote:Facewon wrote:Mayweather is a wife beating A-hole. They're both doing it for the cash, and Mayweather, in particular, is coming out of retirement for this. He's not late stage Ali but he's on the old side.
Yes to all. But Mayweather's economical style's the best kind for older boxers (Bernard Hopkins and Archie Moore were elites into their forties).
I mentioned Pirog in the other thread, and if you watch Danny Jacobs punching air at the end of this...
It takes me right back to the first time I sparred a shorter, vastly more experienced kid who did the same thing to me. It felt like he was moving as soon as I started throwing, the cheater! Sod that for soldiers in MMA, though, right — you just plough in for a takedown. We were wearing 16oz gloves that time, but a word on that: 8oz boxing gloves aren't twice as padded as 4oz MMA gloves, just twice the weight, obviously. Because the boxing gloves have padding around the fingers and more around the wrist, the contact area's actually very similar. And boxing wraps are hard.
This is a fundamental that works against novices, because they'll throw their jabs from a fairly static position. The way around it is to get inside (so that your lead foot's to your opponent's inside), and roll (or find a way to achieve the same result) so that you start throwing your jab on the inside of your opponent's lead arm. The danger here — orthodox versus orthodox — is that you'll invite lead rights if you keep moving towards his rear hand to start your offence. Also, it makes your jab easier to parry with his right.
You can also pull your head back to make his jab fall short (with a great sense of distance and timing) and counter it with a straight right. That's a Mayweather trademark, and was famously employed by Ali. A really sweet way of blocking those rights is with a shoulder roll, which is another favourite of Mayweather's. Here's Pirog diverting a right and countering with a left uppercut as the other guy falls in.
If the right goes behind instead, it sets up the right uppercut.
Pause this at 0:48 and the right looks guaranteed, but nope.
One for you, Face: footwork. As Bernard says, if you see a weakness when he comes forward, let him. Vice versa if he crumbles when you go forward.
And that's the thing with throwing bombs as a novice — you tend to overreach and fall in behind them. Mayweather's overrated as an all-timer (he's avoided way too many for that; at least in their primes), but a lot of his best skills are too subtle for casuals to notice. As I said in Sports, the ropes are a serious threat to McGregor because they're alien to him. If you get trapped then your feet turn square, and you need tons of experience to avoid panicking. Here's Golovkin cutting off the ring with a righthand feint to reposition himself for a left.
This bit shows what I mean about positioning your lead foot on the outside for inside advantage, without walking onto a lead right (or left, in Proksa's case). It would've been hard for Proksa to throw a lead left there because Golovkin's left leg was inhibiting a full pivot, and a left hook would've been too late. Offensive switch-hitting requires good balance, and Golovkin's is superb.
Further to what Bernard says about flat-footedness, probably the hardest P4P puncher, Julian Jackson, had this to say.
Bernard's talking about Floyd here, but the creeping aspect applies across the board. I fully expect Mayweather to use this approach. (Except with Mayweather's left leg to McGregor's lead right.)
In which case, McGregor should tuck and close distance, looking to tie. But with his inexperience he might just stand there with his hands up, and that'll be that. The straight right from an orthodox boxer against a southpaw has always been effective. Oldman Hopkins dropped Calzaghe with one. If McGregor overreaches with his lead left, he'll end up in trouble like this. And that's pretty much how I imagine this match looking.
I don't fancy McGregor at all in this but he did train up as a boxer so i don't think he's quite the novice at this as some paint. I'd still expect mayweather to dominate but it will be because of better skills and experience as opposed to McGregor being completely new to a boxing style. Hopefully it's at least entertaining for a few rounds but I would honestly expect mayweather to dominate from the start and McGregor to get flustered and then fatigued quickly.
SFV - reddave360 -
Stopharage wrote:I hope McGregor gets smashed to pieces in Round 1 so that all the jumped-up McGregor fanboys online rein in it; he wasn't the creator of fighting 4 years ago, his shitty suits aren't classy,amusing or particularly well made and the sooner he takes his tired circus routine back to MMA, the better.
Woah, lets not be too hasty about him going back to MMA. He can go and make shit films or something. -
Diluted Dante wrote:Stopharage wrote:I hope McGregor gets smashed to pieces in Round 1 so that all the jumped-up McGregor fanboys online rein in it; he wasn't the creator of fighting 4 years ago, his shitty suits aren't classy,amusing or particularly well made and the sooner he takes his tired circus routine back to MMA, the better.
Woah, lets not be too hasty about him going back to MMA. He can go and make shit films or something.
Is there another expendables film on the way?
SFV - reddave360 -
Paul the sparky wrote:Body shots would be the tactic, but it was Hatton's game plan too and didn't end well.
Mayweather's Philly guard makes it super-hard to land any telling bodyshots. The weakness of that guard is that it leaves the head more open, but that's why his shoulder roll's famous, and he controls (limits) angles with his positioning. He jinks well at range, and because of his style, it's really hard to land anything once you've closed the distance.
The bigger De La Hoya tried outmuscling him and couldn't make that pay, and he was a top boxer.
RedDave2 wrote:I'd still expect mayweather to dominate but it will be because of better skills and experience as opposed to McGregor being completely new to a boxing style.
Lots of people train as boxers and don't learn a thing. I've seen it countless times. Pele Reid and Matt Skelton were two former kickboxers who did quite well as heavies, but Skelton never got over his habit of arm-punching; his legs were just there to ferry him around.
Light-heavyweight Danny McIntosh was another who looked good until he met Nathan Cleverly. -
A double's the preferred outcome, yeah. But with Mayweather beating the count so that we don't have years of boxing-sucks noise.
-
RedDave2 wrote:I'd still expect mayweather to dominate but it will be because of better skills and experience as opposed to McGregor being completely new to a boxing style.
Lots of people train as boxers and don't learn a thing. I've seen it countless times. Pele Reid and Matt Skelton were two former kickboxers who did quite well as heavies, but Skelton never got over his habit of arm-punching; his legs were just there to ferry him around.
Light-heavyweight Danny McIntosh was another who looked good until he met Nathan Cleverly.[/quote]
Not saying he won't make errors, but the guy has been boxing since the age of twelve and did compete (albeit in underage competition) but from what I can gather he carried on sparring well into his mma career. Just making the point that I don't think he will be so fish out of water as some expect. Absolutely outclassed? That's a different story.
SFV - reddave360 -
WorKid wrote:I've seen Rocky so Mcgregor will win (yes I know Rocky loses.)
Rocky wins the hearts and minds. -
It's it not a comedy thing like Rocky vs Hulk Hogan? -
Hadn't Mayweather been accused of ducking difficult fights throughout his career? Has no one in 49 fights ever floored him?
-
McGregor needs to do an Aldo. Longer it goes on, the more fucked he is. If Nate 'stoned out me nut' Diaz can knock him a few times, Mayweather can. -
McGregor is basically Mickey O'Neil from Snatch.
-
Does he like dogs?
-
RedDave2 wrote:the guy has been boxing since the age of twelve and did compete (albeit in underage competition)
You can box as a junior from 11, but I haven't seen any amateur record of his? You're not supposed to fight anyone more than a year older or younger as an amateur, but I've seen that flouted. (Most recently by the 15-year-old son of a mate, who beat a 17-year-old in some off-the-record contest in a gym. Not my cup of tea, but it happens.)
Absolutely outclassed? That's a different story.
Yup. Some people train in boxing for years and can't box. Are they boxers? I suppose they must be, but not good ones. -
Paul the sparky wrote:Does he like dogs?
heh -
Dinostar77 wrote:Hadn't Mayweather been accused of ducking difficult fights throughout his career? Has no one in 49 fights ever floored him?
Hurt several times, but never floored. He's ducked about a dozen people by my count, but that does include others he fought when they were past it (Hoya; Pacquiao; Mosley...), as well as opponents who would've been tricky to meet due to differing career-points and limited time at the same weights.
But for sure, I could name a few guys I'd have fancied to beat him. -
Moot_Geeza wrote:Rocky wins the hearts and minds.
Let's hear what @Roujin has to say...
@isanbard knows the score. -
Escape wrote:Dinostar77 wrote:Hadn't Mayweather been accused of ducking difficult fights throughout his career? Has no one in 49 fights ever floored him?
Hurt several times, but never floored. He's ducked about a dozen people by my count, but that does include others he fought when they were past it (Hoya; Pacquiao; Mosley...), as well as opponents who would've been tricky to meet due to differing career-points and limited time at the same weights.
But for sure, I could name a few guys I'd have fancied to beat him.
Yeah, Mayweather has deffo fought big names but rarely, if ever, at the time they would have given him the most problems. I'd add Hatton to that list, too. I doubt he would have beaten him, but it would almost certainly have been tighter. -
Hatton's one of the few who was close to his prime. It came about a year too late for him, rather than soon after he beat Tszyu. But even that version of Hatton had lost some of his ferocious old workrate; his pints were coming home. It wasn't age with Ricky, it was inactivity: just one fight in 2006, at a higher weight, and he struggled a bit to win that one.
He's not one of those I'd have picked to beat Mayweather, though.
Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Discussions2,713
- Games1,877
- Off topic836