revelthedog wrote:I think the unpaid hours culture is becoming a bit extreme tbh. I understand the arguments for and against working additional hours to get the job done. In my old job the company became a call centre over a period of time. They started to log start times for even the most senior staff in a way to measure productivity.  Because measuring the amount of time someone is at work is  how you measure how effective they are. If you ended up staying past your normal leaving time then everything was fine, though if you were 5 minutes late then God help you.  They  had you filling out a form if you were in at 9.01 to say why you were late. Even if they knew the traffic had been terrible. And then they would take you to disciplinary if you were late more than 3 times in a month.  when it happened to my colleagues (not to me, because I told them to go play clock-in with someone who gave a fuck) I told them to ask for a print out of their log in times. their excuse was always it was detrimental to the business if people were even one minute late. But not detrimental to the employee if they went home an hour or two later than usual.  It was difficult to complain if someone (in one case) had cost the business 12 minutes in the morning (no kidding) but had in total done over 7 additional hours in the same month without overtime.
mk64 wrote:If you don't work those hours moto then a graduate student probably will. Businesses also change and can be rapidly. If the 40 hours a week is all your business can afford then would you prefer to work a couple of extra hours for your company to stay afloat and keep your job or make them pay you the extra and go under? Hypothetical like..
Its not my job to do a costing exercise to make sure the work I'm doing keeps the company afloat. Â If the management are having trouble I suggest they learn how to use a calculator. Â And they need to increase their charges or diversify in what they are providing as a company. Â I would rather they learn the basics of Operational Management and Financial planning and didn't go into a job lying they could get it done for less time then they knew was possible. Or costed it properly so they had some leeway.Â
Fucking simple business basics Maria.
You're getting confused here.Âmk64 wrote:We are in a recession if you hadn't noticed. Lots of people are working a little harder and longer for essentially the good of the economy.
I think this is what's stopped me getting the boot so far tbh, there were a few of us that never licked arse and rumour was that we were on an internal 'hitlist' to try and oust us, the electrician was one but he walked himself after a bust up with the boss, the plumber was another who they told to go with no reason given and the other chap they moved to a different site. The other thing is that I am here as a Signmaker but I can do all the processes involved in this from design to set-up to manufacturer to installation so whereas nobody is irreplaceable some jobs are more difficult to fill. Also they are also in the process of extending my working area as I said its not big enough for me and they have also just said I can buy a £2,200 banner welder so these are all signs that I'm not for the chop but I have been warned off confronting them about the hours thing. The person that told me said that they all agreed to it but they self time manage, ie they do the hours requested but then skive off either hiding on one of the sites or just going home and having others cover for them. I said I don't want to do that, I want to work while I'm here and have the extra I have to work covered either in time off or extra pay.monkey wrote:If you're the only person doing the job, surely you've got some leverage there. They won't want to get rid off you if they can help it as it'd take time to get someone else in. A bit risky obviously.
monkey wrote:You're getting confused here.Âmk64 wrote:We are in a recession if you hadn't noticed. Lots of people are working a little harder and longer for essentially the good of the economy.
In this specific case, they're telling him he has to work the equivalent of an extra day on top of the 5 day week he already works. They haven't asked him if he could pitch in more because times are tough. They've told him fuck you, you have to do this and should have been doing it all along, despite what we said about you not having to.
There never was this position before I started, they didn't like waiting for dedicated sign companies to produce the work they needed so approached me about setting it up in-house. They don't seem to fathom the amount of work that goes into sign making and can't quite contemplate that if a sign company with 15+ staff couldn't get things done on time then how can one person.mk64 wrote:He's also saying that he has to becaus he's doing 3 peoples jobs. When did those people leave or get fired? Before he took the job on? As I said before I was talking hypothetically. If I was moto I'd be thinking from their position not just my own.
Ok, I'm thinking like a CEO - 'Hmmm, perhaps if we squeezed our employees a bit harder for no extra pay we could make more money. Yeah, we could really take advantage of high unemployment to make sure nobody would dare refuse and risk losing their job.'mk64 wrote:Perhaps if you tried to think like a CEO or manager you might start to get some answers. An yes Jon... It's a slippery slope and Thats why some business fail.
mk64 wrote:I mean yea.. Product isn't selling and we aren't making enough margin. Why don't we just put the price up so we can pay our staff overtime?! •facepalm•
Perhaps reread the part of my post which refers to changes in the market. We are in a recession if you hadn't noticed. Lots of people are working a little harder and longer for essentially the good of the economy.Maybe 40 hours was relevant when they took him on but not now.Perhaps if you tried to think like a CEO or manager you might start to get some answers. An yes Jon... It's a slippery slope and Thats why some business fail.
How is that your point? You were just saying he should work for free for the greater good.mk64 wrote:My point exactly Dante!!!!
Here's how it works...mk64 wrote:I know this isn't the case but for all you know moto could be a lazy or slow cunt compared to other people in his industry doing his job.
JonB wrote:Ok, I'm thinking like a CEO - 'Hmmm, perhaps if we squeezed our employees a bit harder for no extra pay we could make more money. Yeah, we could really take advantage of high unemployment to make sure nobody would dare refuse and risk losing their job.' Doesn't really change anything, does it? And how often do businesses fail purely from overworking their employees?mk64 wrote:Perhaps if you tried to think like a CEO or manager you might start to get some answers. An yes Jon... It's a slippery slope and Thats why some business fail.
Skerret wrote:Get out of there Moto, or something. Open a fruit stand.
This isn't right. You're still getting paid to work a minimum number of hours. You might not last long in some jobs if you only stick to the minimum.adkm1979 wrote:If you are paid a salary, you are being paid to get a job done. Â
In an earlier post I said that if you have to work extra, then either you're not getting enough done or they're not employing enough staff. Â The way you've written that suggests the latter, provided one eight hour day is exactly the right amount of time to design, print, laminate and hang a sign.Moto70 wrote:Here's how it works...
In Moto's case I'd suggest that it was inappropriate to pay him a salary. Â The nature of some work is better suited to hourly pay, the nature of others is a salary. Â Unfortunately a perception has developed over time that 'better' jobs are salaried, and people decide which route they're going based on who they want to attract. Â It's narrow minded and misguided.monkey wrote:In Moto's case, when does he stop? When all the work is cleared? He'd never have a day off. edit: And if you are simply being paid for the job, not the hours, why aren't people allowed to leave the office when they're finished?
Not all jobs are a day's worth but that's a good example. Today I had planned to get 10 double-sided banners printed for out the front of my site, I then get told they need 40 Grass Cutting in Progress signs made because of H&S, so I've set them up and printed them and I'm waiting for the boards to arrive, this has obviously set the banners back but this is by the by as the power is off anyway.adkm1979 wrote:In an earlier post I said that if you have to work extra, then either you're not getting enough done or they're not employing enough staff. Â The way you've written that suggests the latter, provided one eight hour day is exactly the right amount of time to design, print, laminate and hang a sign. I'm guessing that the design part is where your real talent is. Â Is the printing, laminating and hanging equally challenging, or something a minimum wage grunt could do while you design more signs?Moto70 wrote:Here's how it works...
adkm1979 wrote:In Moto's case I'd suggest that it was inappropriate to pay him a salary. Â The nature of some work is better suited to hourly pay, the nature of others is a salary. Â Unfortunately a perception has developed over time that 'better' jobs are salaried, and people decide which route they're going based on who they want to attract. Â It's narrow minded and misguided.monkey wrote:In Moto's case, when does he stop? When all the work is cleared? He'd never have a day off. edit: And if you are simply being paid for the job, not the hours, why aren't people allowed to leave the office when they're finished?
Where the fuck do you work?!Moto70 wrote:...10 double-sided banners printed for out the front of my site... ...40 Grass Cutting in Progress signs... ...a backlog of around 100 signs... Â ...around 20 banners (all big)... Â ...a shit load of H&S stuff (Fire Points, Slippery Surfacc, etc)... ...a chap that works the ticket sales counter...
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!