Work - The pros and the cons... - The Bear and Badger

mk64

revelthedog wrote:

I think the unpaid hours culture is becoming a bit extreme tbh. I understand the arguments for and against working additional hours to get the job done. In my old job the company became a call centre over a period of time. They started to log start times for even the most senior staff in a way to measure productivity. Â Because measuring the amount of time someone is at work is Â how you measure how effective they are.Â If you ended up staying past your normal leaving time then everything was fine, though if you were 5 minutes late then God help you. Â They Â had you filling out a form if you were in at 9.01 to say why you were late. Even if they knew the traffic had been terrible. And then they would take you to disciplinary if you were late more than 3 times in a month. Â when it happened to my colleagues (not to me, because I told them to go play clock-in with someone who gave a fuck) I told them to ask for a print out of their log in times. their excuse was always it was detrimental to the business if people were even one minute late. But not detrimental to the employee if they went home an hour or two later than usual. Â It was difficult to complain if someone (in one case) had cost the business 12 minutes in the morning (no kidding) but had in total done over 7 additional hours in the same month without overtime.

mk64 wrote:

If you don't work those hours moto then a graduate student probably will. Businesses also change and can be rapidly. If the 40 hours a week is all your business can afford then would you prefer to work a couple of extra hours for your company to stay afloat and keep your job or make them pay you the extra and go under? Hypothetical like..

Its not my job to do a costing exercise to make sure the work I'm doing keeps the company afloat. Â If the management are having trouble I suggest they learn how to use a calculator. Â And they need to increase their charges or diversify in what they are providing as a company. Â I would rather they learn the basics of Operational Management and Financial planning and didn't go into a job lying they could get it done for less time then they knew was possible. Or costed it properly so they had some leeway.Â
Fucking simple business basics Maria.

Perhaps reread the part of my post which refers to changes in the market. We are in a recession if you hadn't noticed. Lots of people are working a little harder and longer for essentially the good of the economy.

Maybe 40 hours was relevant when they took him on but not now.

Perhaps if you tried to think like a CEO or manager you might start to get some answers. An yes Jon... It's a slippery slope and Thats why some business fail.

mk64

I mean yea.. Product isn't selling and we aren't making enough margin. Why don't we just put the price up so we can pay our staff overtime?!

â€¢facepalmâ€¢

monkey

mk64 wrote:

We are in a recession if you hadn't noticed. Lots of people are working a little harder and longer for essentially the good of the economy.

You're getting confused here.Â
In this specific case, they're telling him he has to work the equivalent of an extra day on top of the 5 day week he already works. They haven't asked him if he could pitch in more because times are tough. They've told him fuck you, you have to do this and should have been doing it all along, despite what we said about you not having to.

I_R

I'd seriously start looking for something else Moto. They're going to win and you'll be working longer than you want for the same money or you'll win and your bosses will be pissed off and probably start looking for a way to sack you. They sound like a shambles letting this run so far, that never ends well.

mk64

He's also saying that he has to becaus he's doing 3 peoples jobs. When did those people leave or get fired? Before he took the job on?

As I said before I was talking hypothetically. If I was moto I'd be thinking from their position not just my own.

Moto70

monkey wrote:

If you're the only person doing the job, surely you've got some leverage there. They won't want to get rid off you if they can help it as it'd take time to get someone else in.Â A bit risky obviously.

I think this is what's stopped me getting the boot so far tbh, there were a few of us that never licked arse and rumour was that we were on an internal 'hitlist' to try and oust us, the electrician was one but he walked himself after a bust up with the boss, the plumber was another who they told to go with no reason given and the other chap they moved to a different site. The other thing is that I am here as a Signmaker but I can do all the processes involved in this from design to set-up to manufacturer to installation so whereas nobody is irreplaceable some jobs are more difficult to fill. Also they are also in the process of extending my working area as I said its not big enough for me and they have also just said I can buy a Â£2,200 banner welder so these are all signs that I'm not for the chop but I have been warned off confronting them about the hours thing. The person that told me said that they all agreed to it but they self time manage, ie they do the hours requested but then skive off either hiding on one of the sites or just going home and having others cover for them. I said I don't want to do that, I want to work while I'm here and have the extra I have to work covered either in time off or extra pay.

By pushing and trying to get more out of people I actually think they have done more damage by having terrible staff morale which results in a less efficient workforce...

mk64

monkey wrote:

mk64 wrote:

We are in a recession if you hadn't noticed. Lots of people are working a little harder and longer for essentially the good of the economy.

You're getting confused here.Â
In this specific case, they're telling him he has to work the equivalent of an extra day on top of the 5 day week he already works. They haven't asked him if he could pitch in more because times are tough. They've told him fuck you, you have to do this and should have been doing it all along, despite what we said about you not having to.

furthermore. Iirc. They haven't told him he has to work an additional day. It's just that for him to get the work done or finished then he would have to work longer. Perhaps 48 hours instead of 40. I know this isn't the case but for all you know moto could be a lazy or slow cunt compared to other people in his industry doing his job.

Moto70

mk64 wrote:

He's also saying that he has to becaus he's doing 3 peoples jobs. When did those people leave or get fired? Before he took the job on? As I said before I was talking hypothetically. If I was moto I'd be thinking from their position not just my own.

There never was this position before I started, they didn't like waiting for dedicated sign companies to produce the work they needed so approached me about setting it up in-house. They don't seem to fathom the amount of work that goes into sign making and can't quite contemplate that if a sign company with 15+ staff couldn't get things done on time then how can one person.

I have said if we could use our external design agency to produce more of the artwork I could catch up no end but they don't want to pay them...

JonB

mk64 wrote:

Perhaps if you tried to think like a CEO or manager you might start to get some answers. An yes Jon... It's a slippery slope and Thats why some business fail.

Ok, I'm thinking like a CEO - 'Hmmm, perhaps if we squeezed our employees a bit harder for no extra pay we could make more money. Yeah, we could really take advantage of high unemployment to make sure nobody would dare refuse and risk losing their job.'

Doesn't really change anything, does it?

And how often do businesses fail purely from overworking their employees?

Diluted Dante

Sorry MK, but if a business is not able to run on the hours that it gives itself, it's not sustainable, and as sad as it is for the people that will lose their jobs it should go bust. No one should be expected to work for free. If 40 hours were relevent when Moto was taken on but not now they should be giving him a 48 hour contract, with the equivalent pay rise. If they can't afford to do that well tough luck frankly.

mk64

Moto, what you have just said is a clear example of how your job has changed. Therefore you should renegotiate on those grounds.

mk64

My point exactly Dante!!!!

Diluted Dante

Right, so as long as we're clear that you're saying Moto should be paid for his time, that's ok.

Rev

mk64 wrote:

I mean yea.. Product isn't selling and we aren't making enough margin. Why don't we just put the price up so we can pay our staff overtime?! â€¢facepalmâ€¢

Perhaps reread the part of my post which refers to changes in the market. We are in a recession if you hadn't noticed. Lots of people are working a little harder and longer for essentially the good of the economy.

Maybe 40 hours was relevant when they took him on but not now.

Perhaps if you tried to think like a CEO or manager you might start to get some answers. An yes Jon... It's a slippery slope and Thats why some business fail.

Product isn't selling? Get better sales staff or review your product. Â Not making enough margin? That's a project management and cost management issue. Â They should have factored this into their costings when they were pitching for the job.

His bosses are relying on people working without pay to get the job done! this is different from your recession all hands on deck theory.Â
you can guarantee the family that owns the company will be well looked after. Â

I do run a department and I have put the costs up to make things more profitable and you know what? the business I'm winning accepts it. Â Business will always be willing to pay for a good service. A while you can scream recession as an excuse, the businesses that are screaming recession and failing are usually the ones that sit there and do nothing about there situation and expect things to get better.Â

I have to look from my position always. Because no one else will pay the mortgage. And I'm not some charity doing free work for companies that can't run their business correctly.

monkey

mk64 wrote:

My point exactly Dante!!!!

How is that your point? You were just saying he should work for free for the greater good.

Oh right, you were being hypothetical so you don't need to make sense.

Moto70

mk64 wrote:

I know this isn't the case but for all you know moto could be a lazy or slow cunt compared to other people in his industry doing his job.

Here's how it works...

1. One of the sites requests a new entrance sign.
2. I design the sign and have it approved.
3. I print the sign.
4. I laminate and mount the sign onto aluminium I have cut to size.
5. I go and fit the sign.

That is the first day done. While I'm doing this 3 more signs come in so...

1. I design one of the new signs and have it approved.
2. I print the new sign and while this is printing I start designing the next one.
3.Â I laminate and mount the sign onto aluminium I have cut to size.
4. I go and fit the new sign.

"Oh these new signs look nice, I'll get some made." Day 3 we now have another 5 signs come in...

1. We now have a backlog of 6 signs that need designing on top of the one that we designed yesterday that we can make today.
2. H&S have been in touch and all the Gas Supply signs need to be replaced so can you drop what you're doing and do these.

"I know let's just tell him to work more hours."

Skerret

Get out of there Moto, or something.Â Open a fruit stand.

M0stly harm13ss

JonB wrote:

mk64 wrote:

Perhaps if you tried to think like a CEO or manager you might start to get some answers. An yes Jon... It's a slippery slope and Thats why some business fail.

Ok, I'm thinking like a CEO - 'Hmmm, perhaps if we squeezed our employees a bit harder for no extra pay we could make more money. Yeah, we could really take advantage of high unemployment to make sure nobody would dare refuse and risk losing their job.' Doesn't really change anything, does it? And how often do businesses fail purely from overworking their employees?

Businesses get very successful by overworking their employees. Look at the bigÂ AccountancyÂ companies for examples of bad behaviour when it comes to staff management (highly paid partners drive well bonused senior managers into the ground, who in turn work a set of less senior employees and graduates - all salaried - into the ground).

@Moto, you're answering your own questions here. Family run (therefore probably not the best managers/staff at the top that could be there and also little to no management accountability or performance management), poor decision making and strategy driven purely by cashflow (re your example of the now in house sign making and your issues with pay and hours, key staff leaving, etc). This business is ok short term, but will be in trouble in the future. I would be polishing up the CV right now, have a poke about the market to see if getting a new job is a realistic opportunity and if it is go for it.

Coopers Green

Hang on, not sure if it's fair to jump on MK here. Looks to me like he's just being devil's advocate. Argue with his point, sure, but this is a pretty interesting discussion re: work & management.

Moto70

One other thing, do you know what I'm doing today?

Sat pissing about my iPad because they've turned the electric off where my PC is while they extend my work area, I good example of where they could have given me some of the hours back and sent me home...

adkm1979

Some of you keep on banging on about working for free, failing to grasp the fundamental difference between a wage and a salary. Â If you are paid hourly, you are being paid to work at a steady rate for a number of hours, and if more work is required you work longer and get paid for it. Â If you are paid a salary, you are being paid to get a job done. Â The forty hour week is a guide.

I'm paid hourly. Â Except they calculate that hourly rate from deciding what we get paid for a year, and that makes thing look fudgy. Â I have to be in work 10-15 minutes early every shift, which I'm not paid for, and if I'm held on at the end of the day they stop paying me entirely for the first half hour, but then the overtime kicks in. Â Of course, overtime works in fifteen minute increments, so really I have to work 45 minutes before I'm paid extra. Â Add on your fifteen minutes at the start of the day, and then think about the number of times you get held on, and it adds up. Â Hey ho.

Tempy

Skerret wrote:

Get out of there Moto, or something.Â Open a fruit stand.

There's always money in the banana stand, so I hear tell.

Coopers Green

Fair enough, adkm, and good point about it being a guide, but it's more the grey area that's open to abuse that's under discussion. At least, as far as I can tell.Â

But then, suddenly, banana stands.

monkey

adkm1979 wrote:

If you are paid a salary, you are being paid to get a job done. Â

This isn't right. You're still getting paid to work a minimum number of hours. You might not last long in some jobs if you only stick to the minimum.

In Moto's case, when does he stop? When all the work is cleared? He'd never have a day off.
edit: And if you are simply being paid for the job, not the hours, why aren't people allowed to leave the office when they're finished?

adkm1979

Moto70 wrote:

Here's how it works...

In an earlier post I said that if you have to work extra, then either you're not getting enough done or they're not employing enough staff. Â The way you've written that suggests the latter, provided one eight hour day is exactly the right amount of time to design, print, laminate and hang a sign.

I'm guessing that the design part is where your real talent is. Â Is the printing, laminating and hanging equally challenging, or something a minimum wage grunt could do while you design more signs?

adkm1979

monkey wrote:

In Moto's case, when does he stop? When all the work is cleared? He'd never have a day off. edit: And if you are simply being paid for the job, not the hours, why aren't people allowed to leave the office when they're finished?

In Moto's case I'd suggest that it was inappropriate to pay him a salary. Â The nature of some work is better suited to hourly pay, the nature of others is a salary. Â Unfortunately a perception has developed over time that 'better' jobs are salaried, and people decide which route they're going based on who they want to attract. Â It's narrow minded and misguided.

Moto70

adkm1979 wrote:

Moto70 wrote:

Here's how it works...

In an earlier post I said that if you have to work extra, then either you're not getting enough done or they're not employing enough staff. Â The way you've written that suggests the latter, provided one eight hour day is exactly the right amount of time to design, print, laminate and hang a sign. I'm guessing that the design part is where your real talent is. Â Is the printing, laminating and hanging equally challenging, or something a minimum wage grunt could do while you design more signs?

Not all jobs are a day's worth but that's a good example. Today I had planned to get 10 double-sided banners printed for out the front of my site, I then get told they need 40 Grass Cutting in Progress signs made because of H&S, so I've set them up and printed them and I'm waiting for the boards to arrive, this has obviously set the banners back but this is by the by as the power is off anyway.

I currently have a backlog of around 100 signs to make (some are small some are big), around 20 banners (all big) and a shit load of H&S stuff (Fire Points, Slippery Surfacc, etc).

There are people here that would be ideally suited to helping me, I now get help on a Monday from a chap that works the ticket sales counter, he wants to work in here with me and I've said I'd like him here as he has a brain and will pick up the manufacturing side quickly enough. At the mo he's not on much more than minimum wage and he is also now on a 48 hour contract which he sticks to because last year he was on hourly and doing 70-80 hr weeks in the busy times so he was earning. He has told me they want him to do more hours but he refuses to...

regmcfly

adkm1979 wrote:

monkey wrote:

In Moto's case, when does he stop? When all the work is cleared? He'd never have a day off. edit: And if you are simply being paid for the job, not the hours, why aren't people allowed to leave the office when they're finished?

In Moto's case I'd suggest that it was inappropriate to pay him a salary. Â The nature of some work is better suited to hourly pay, the nature of others is a salary. Â Unfortunately a perception has developed over time that 'better' jobs are salaried, and people decide which route they're going based on who they want to attract. Â It's narrow minded and misguided.

This is probably the sensible answer to everything here. If you're on a 'per job' basis, then surely the pay should be per job, or hourly.

adkm1979

Moto70 wrote:

...10 double-sided banners printed for out the front of my site... ...40 Grass Cutting in Progress signs... ...a backlog of around 100 signs... Â ...around 20 banners (all big)... Â ...a shit load of H&S stuff (Fire Points, Slippery Surfacc, etc)... ...a chap that works the ticket sales counter...

Where the fuck do you work?!

Coopers Green

Don't forget the sparky and the plumber!

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