Work - The pros and the cons... - The Bear and Badger

M0stly harm13ss

adkm1979 wrote:

Moto70 wrote:

...10 double-sided banners printed for out the front of my site... ...40 Grass Cutting in Progress signs... ...a backlog of around 100 signs... Â ...around 20 banners (all big)... Â ...a shit load of H&S stuff (Fire Points, Slippery Surfacc, etc)... ...a chap that works the ticket sales counter...

Where the fuck do you work?!

Super Mario World?

JonB

adkm1979 wrote:

Some of you keep on banging on about working for free, failing to grasp the fundamental difference between a wage and a salary. Â If you are paid hourly, you are being paid to work at a steady rate for a number of hours, and if more work is required you work longer and get paid for it. Â If you are paid a salary, you are being paid to get a job done. Â The forty hour week is a guide.

Right, and it should be a guide that is appropriate to the actual workload, because it was based on that guide that the job was accepted in the first place. If the norm to get through a reasonable workload is actually more like 48 hours, then that should have been given as the guide amount. Basically, one shouldn't go in thinking one thing is expected of them and find out it's actually something more.

Moto70

I work for a company that has 4 holiday sites, a hotel, a golf course and a pub...

Most people just take signage for granted and don't think about the process involved behind the scenes or how much signage there actually is. We have loads of vehicles, apartments, caravans and obviously all the bars, shops and eateries that go with it.

www.woolacombe.com

A good example is that I had signs to do for all the parks that the managers were desperate to get but the owner had me on the Wave machine for nearly a week cutting and fixing all the Perspex because nobody there building it would work with Perspex for fear of cracking or splitting it.

adkm1979

JonB wrote:

If the norm to get through a reasonable workload is actually more like 48 hours, then that should have been given as the guide amount. Basically, one shouldn't go in thinking one thing is expected of them and find out it's actually something more.

Except that, in this case, the guide was 48 hours, and having employed Moto they found out he wasn't willing to do that.

Diluted Dante

The issue is though that they then said 40 would be fine, which was stupid, and entirely their own fault.

monkey

adkm1979 wrote:

Except that, in this case, the guide was 48 hours, and having employed Moto they found out he wasn't willing to do that.

If your standard hours of work are that far above the average, you have a (maybe not legal) responsibility to ensure someone is aware of this before they start.

JonB

Yep, when he refused the 48 hour contract they said fine, and now they're offering a contract which says 40 hours is the norm.

adkm1979

Actually, when he said he'd only work forty, they said, "We'll see how it goes." Â That's clear vague-speak for 'no'. Â They're now offering a contract that says, "Forty hours (plus eight), no, really, just forty(-eight, ahem)." Â Yes it's all a bit vague and they maybe should've mentioned that a 48 hour week is standard, but it's not that unusual to work that long, and Moto should have asked before he took the job.

Moto70

I was willing to work 48 hours just not at the money they offered, if they want me for 48 hours then they can pay me for that, I'm not taking a job that involves more actual work than my previous job in the same field for less money than I was earning nearly 8 years previously.

People seem to be forgetting it's not the hours I am objecting to but the unpaid hours, at my very first meeting with them I said of required I would work 80 hours but it would have to be paid for whether that be with money or TOIL.

For an example look at what work you are doing now and the job that somebody else is doing that ties in, would you work more hours for the same money if they choose to get rid of him and pass his responsibilities onto you?

Again this has only arisen because I have decided to use 6 days of it for holiday, up until now they were happy with the arrangement where I would finish early some days or take half a day, it is only because I have taken a lump sum that they brought this up.

mk64

As I'm getting jumped on because people are choosing to take snippets from my posts I'll ask this; how long have you been there and how quickly did it become apparent thy there doesn't seem to be enough hours in the day to manage the workload being allocated?

It sounds like you are unable to finish or manage the amount coming in even if you worked an extra 8 hours. I don't know the economics of your position or company hence me asking about the ebitda earlier but you should ask them what is more important. For you to complete all of the signs in the time you can or "on time" (presumably to a sales sla in this case) with additional resource? See what the answer to that is with your boss and you will know what you should do.

My opinion in a wider context is that those paid by the hour should be renunerated for overtime but that those on a salary should work to get the job done. If it turns out the workload is to much then fight the workload or quit.

Ps I have been in a position where I was doing considerable overtime for free before.

monkey

mk64 wrote:

As I'm getting jumped on because people are choosing to take snippets from my posts

I can only speak for myself but you're being inconsistent and making dumb ass points.
And since when do we need to respond to the entirety of someone's post as well? I've just been choosing the stupidest bits. I don't have all fecking day.

[Deleted User]

You should all be fired for spending too much time on the internet.

[Deleted User]

fight the workload or quit.

If only life was so simple

beano

FWIW and IIRC, if an employee doesn't sign a contract within 4 weeks that would mean they get a standard contract of employment. Which includes double time on bank holidays...I don't know if this is the case anymore but I know it was this reason that was cited by our HR department in Tetley Pub Co.

In my experience for various companies

Tetley Pub Co. / Tetley Peter-Walker / Allied Domecq Retail - I was paid a salary as a manager. The salary was quit handsome (I thought) for someone still in their teens so I had no problem working 70hour weeks. But in reality they were badgers of the highest order.

Bar Firm 2 - More salary but for multiples of 12 hours over the 48 we would get a day in lieu as extra holidays. But you were lucky to get more than a day if you did 60hours or 72hours and you'd always average 55.

Software Firm - Signing the exemption for the working times regulations is part of the contract. But it was rare you would end up on overtime. I did a few times, and that is always acknowledged internally to the rest of the workforce. Privately you'd get a bung too every odd overtime you worked which was usually a weeks pay so they were very generous.

Because of my last experience I thought the culture of work all the hours you want and get paid a flat rate salary had more or less ceased but the issue here is you're working for a family Moto and families all think they're the fucking Don of minions. You need to shove a spiked bat up their arse or take sick pay with anxiety and stress and tell ask them to look at what they've done to you.

mk64

monkey wrote:

mk64 wrote:

As I'm getting jumped on because people are choosing to take snippets from my posts

I can only speak for myself but you're being inconsistent and making dumb ass points.
And since when do we need to respond to the entirety of someone's post as well? I've just been choosing the stupidest bits. I don't have all fecking day.

please remind me which bit I was speaking bullshit Im in the mood

monkey

One of the things you said was that employees should be careful how much of their time they actually charge for because it might send the business bankrupt. Then Dante said it was the company's responsibility to ensure that their costs of completing work don't bankrupt the business and you said that was the point you were making. Which it wasn't.

edit: not sure what's going on with the text.

mk64

It was. I'm saying it's both in a changing environment. Moto has the option of working those 8 hours for free unpaid or not. But the impact to the business if he doesn't is that it goes under. Having read thing subsequently it doesn't appear that wu but I was speaking in general. At the same time it's his employers who have to continually review everyones pay in relation to the market and current prifitabilty of the business. I was already intimating dantes point that if they are making cutbacks on resources to this level that moto has descried then it doesnt bode well long or even medium term.

Moto70

You've got it wrong in this case MK, they are cunts who have a shocking turnover of staff and nobody has ever, ever stood up to them. It's got nothing to do with cutbacks or going under but all to do with every penny they don't pay us goes into their own coffers.

Those that have ever even shown an inkling of questioning their employment rights have been dismissed. Some sue, most don't. The last one I heard of that sued got around Â£40-50k, I have since heard from a mate who got Â£22k around 10 years ago but I don't want to leave or sue or be laid off, I just want to be paid for the hours I do without any drama or hassle or anything else.

As for working for nothing to save a failing business that is your choice but if you follow the trail upwards you can bet that there will be somebody that is better off than yourself at that moment in time and generally they won't of been sharing the wealth when times were prosperous.Â I cannot fathom why anybody thinks that any person should work for free and I've yet to hear anything here to convince me otherwise.

FTR I'm at home now, finished 30 mins early as the electricity is still off and I still have a lot of hours in credit. Pissed I had to sit about all day and miss my lad winning his 400m sports day race...

monkey

@mk - lets just draw a line under this one. I can see what you're trying to say, there's not really any point quibbling about how it came across.

mk64

Moto you didn't answer my question, how ling had you been working there to realize there aren't enough paid hours in the day to complete all the work?

Moto70

I started there last spring and I've always had stuff to do but it really started getting busy around December. They decided to replace every sign on every site as well as making new stuff where there was nothing before, the amount of banners alone I've made I've lost count of, put it this way we use a double sided 1" tape to hem the banners and since August I have used just under Â£4,000 worth of it. I have used around Â£15k of ink and over 5km of banner material. I don't know how many sheets of aluminium I've used but it must be around 200...

As for how many hours to complete the work, my work isn't make us 10 signs and then you're done. Today while my power was off I haven't got any of the 10 banners printed that I wanted to get done but I then got called to another site and I now have 2 illuminated signs to get made along with another 5 external aluminium signs (2' x 4') and 10 windows that need fitting with contravision (a material that you can see through but has a pattern printed on the other side), all of this needs designing, making and fitting. This is on top of all the other outstanding work that I have.

This job isn't retail nor is it make 100 units and you're done, it's an ongoing job and I don't really get what you are asking? I have told them that they can't have everything they want in the time they have allowed so to turnaround and say I need to work until it's done it's unreasonable. I have years of being a Signmaker under my belt and it's always the same the jobs come in and you do them, some need pushing forward for a deadline and some are more flexible but never is the work finished, there is always another job to do.

When I worked for Ford doing the Champions League stuff we had a quite few times where we worked through the night, when I did a motorhome for Kenwood I started at 8am and I finished at 8pm the following day, for all of these occasions I was paid for the hours I was working not just told that I should be lucky to have a job and to work for free until it's finished.

mk64

sounds like its getting worse though..

What i'm getting at is i'm trying to work out if its in their interest to hire another person to help you or not.

I worked for a sri lankan company for 18 months who were notorious for making people work extra time. My contract hours were 9-6 but NO ONE left before 6.30pm even though almost every day for the last half an hour i'd be posting on here or the mk forum. My clients had all gone home etc and there wasn't much i could do.

At the interview they mentioned working saturdays and nothing was ever put down as I said no. After two weeks my boss who was a wanker asked me to come in on saturday. I said no and so ten minutes later I was in with the ceo (who'd been one of the people who hired me).

I explained to him that none of my clients were working on Saturday (apart from the Indians) and so to pay me extra to come in on a Saturday was actually going to lose the company money. I actually put the figures infront of him, my salary vs what impact I could possibly make to the business in net revenue. He raised his eyebrows, agreed and we ended up agreeing that I would be contactable by phone and if any of my accounts needed dealing with on the weekend then i'll call them, which frankly is not a big deal and ensures my accounts continuity throughout the month = safer for my commission overall.

Aternatively, just hold your ground on the hours and see what happens.

[Deleted User]

I think MK hit the nail on the head in that last post.

From the sounds of things 8 hours a week is going to barely make a dent in the back log of work you have.

I would sit down with a decision maker ( basicly not the HR person) and suggest employing a juniour/apprentice.

I would say the main thing is to make the meeting about staffing not about your contract, deal with that down the line.

At my place we tend to end up doing two or three weeks worth of late nights before they bite the bullet and hire another pair of hands.

We also only hire from the bottom and promote people upwards to fill gaps. Its a nice system but we are lucky enough to have a smallish team of very good people.

[Deleted User]

If you're that busy Moto, they can really afford to hire someone else and not expect you to do it gratis.

Moto70

I'm past caring, my OP was about the extra hours and that's still the case, the thread just got sidetracked with amount of work and whatnot. If they want me to do it they can pay me, whether they employ anybody to help with the amount of work or not is entirely up to them.

adkm1979

From your description, your current job should never, ever have been salaried.

n0face

Do you work here moto?

Moto70

Good program on Channel 4 at the mo, if you've not started watching then wait to catch it on +1 as you need to see it from the very start...

Moto70

Fucking hell, I wish I hadn't started watching this...

igorgetmeabrain

Moto70 wrote:

Fucking hell, I wish I hadn't started watching this...

That boss guy is an idiot.Â He should sack himself for a start.

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