Climate change apathy Ragnarok thread
  • I'm actually suprised it is so low when I did my calculations.
    Here is a breakdown of a flight on a 747.
    https://www.carbonindependent.org/22.html

    90kg per hour, double to 180kg per hour because of the increased impact of emissions in the sky.

    My dog is doing as much damage as 2 hours 40 minutes in the air. Assuming I do a return flight, 1 hour 20 minutes away. Luton to Glasgow return. edit: per year

    I don't think there is a compelling argument for doing away with pets before we have done away with flying. A return flight to Australia is basically my dog's entire lifespan of food.
  • This stuff is all drop in the ocean distraction from the real issues which as I and others have said fall at the feet of nations, governments and big business.

    It says I cant have a go at our shitty government for opening a coal mine or approving offshore gas extraction because I have a small dog and couldnt be fucked to rinse out the Flora tub properly once last year.
  • dynamiteReady
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    Did you factor in waste?
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  • Yossarian
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    This is a pointless distraction from the real issues.
  • The waste created by a dog?
    No but there are also many aspects of taking a flight I haven't factored in.

    I don't know what the waste calculation is but I doubt it would more than double the feed. So double my numbers if you like. Still minimal.
    How far can you fly one way in 2 hours 40? Spain?
    Two trips to Australia in 15+ years?

    You still arent seeing the big picture here though. It doesn't fucking matter. If all pets ceased to exist we would still be fucked if larger changes aren't made.
  • dynamiteReady
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    The big picture here, is persuading all of us to be a little more considerate, I thought.
    Not just the government.

    If enough people did cut down on meat, stop buying pets they couldn't afford to offset, travelled less (at least in planes and cars), and recycled, that demand's going to feed back up, because industry will have to wind down on production to make themselves profitable.

    I'd argue it makes more sense to sell the changes, rather than chastise people for not making them.
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  • Paul the sparky
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    The tail doesn't wag the dog
  • There’s nothing wrong with everybody doing a little better. It’s a noble undertaking. Recycling more, driving less, etc. But without massive systemic change, we’re all just fucked anyway.
  • Yossarian
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    We’re all being a bit more considerate, every last one of us. We’re all aware of what impact our actions have on the environment, we’re all recycling, we’re all buying more energy efficient appliances, we’re all cutting down on meat, it’s all already happening and it’s not making a blind bit of difference.
  • @dyna
    That was maybe 20 years ago.
    That time is over.

    The well of individual change has run dry.
  • Paul the sparky
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    All of us on here maybe but I'd not get carried away. Agree that it won't make a hapeth of difference though
  • I think most people are at the stage of doing what they can and will do voluntarily.

    Some might want to do do more but can't, this mainly comes down to money like affording an electric car or owning a property to put solar panels on.

    Many could do more but are at their level of what they are willing to do. Not many can say they do everything but we are human and fallible. Some are of course pricks, duled, selfish, drank the myth kool-aid. Either way they probably aren't going to do much more than what they are doing already.

    Younger generations tend to be better than the ones that preceded them. I'm better than my parents, they are better than my grandparents. Young people are super switched on and active. We can't really wait for generational cycles though.

    Speaking of that.
    How much does it cost to keep someone ticking over into their late 80s+.

    Has the Independent writer done a study on that or not bothered because Grandad isn't shiting in their garden giving them a grudge against old people.
  • Yossarian
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    All of us on here maybe but I'd not get carried away. Agree that it won't make a hapeth of difference though

    You’d have to be going out of your way not to be doing more at this stage.
  • dynamiteReady
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    LivDiv wrote:
    Speaking of that. How much does it cost to keep someone ticking over into their late 80s+. Has the Independent writer done a study on that or not bothered because Grandad isn't shiting in their garden giving them a grudge against old people.

    You jest, but that's a huge problem, and we're all already aware of the whole dementia tax debacle.
    There was an allusion to that issue in the have/have nots thread. It's only slightly more palatable to think of that problem as a question about the true purpose of medicine.

    So yes. The Independent probably does have such an article in there somewhere. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    "I didn't get it. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, you fucking do your thing." - Roujin
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  • NY impressively fucked.

    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • The problem with just saying it's a piss in the ocean is to ignore the fact it's all the pisses that are the problem. 

    Yes it'd be nice to legislate this but no democratically elected govt is going to do what's needed and even if they did they wouldn't last long enough to put those policies into place. Democracy and climate change will never have a healthy relationship and it's beyond optimistic to assume it will. China has the best shot at it.

    I guess it's a valid argument to say fuck it, we've had our time, it's gone South and deservedly so, let a new species take over. Then you can properly embrace the shitstorm coming and go mental.

    I'm not trying to lecture anyone - I've had a kid which is just about the worst thing you can do, but to say I'm not going to do this or this because everyone else is doing it is a bullshit argument. One more death is just a piss in the ocean but I wouldn't kill a cat.

    The only thing we can do is try and reduce the harm, and the only way to do that is to change our lifestyle a bit. The absolute best thing you can do is to stop eating meat, or going up in a rocket for kicks, but there are plenty others. 

    There's a valid argument to say it won't make any difference if I personally do it, but it will if more started making those changes, which they are. It'll actually make more of a difference as the population increases, not less.

    I doubt I'd give a fuck tbh if I didn't have a kid, so I can see why people might carry on as normal, but if there's a slight chance it'll make a difference I feel personally I should try a bit, even if it's overly optimistic, because a govt sure as shit isn't going to do it until a dictatorship takes over. Which I presume at some point will happen, but by then it's probably best just to be dead.

    And on that cheery note I'm off to buy some stuff and kill the planet a bit more.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • The idea is surely that if more of us do something, it encourages others either through halo effect or shame / guilt. Yes there will always be selfish wankers - there are those who protest about wearing masks for christ's sake - but if enough of the demos do something, the governments they elect end up listening. If you don't believe that, then there's nothing to say really, it's mere nihilism and no-one can argue with that
  • People are no different from the yeast producing alcohol in fermentation. They can't stop and keep producing the stuff until it eventually kills them. The epitome of evolution eh?

    People can't stop burning stuff and producing CO2 because it would interrupt a deeply established flow of money for big business. Can't have that obviously so bring on the armageddon! Freedom for enterprise and Free market forces; gotta luv it!
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  • The leaders we have elected/enriched are eventually going to kill us all. Humanity will eat itself.
    Spoiler:
  • Well I for one will only eat corn-fed vegans once the apocolypse comes.
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  • poprock wrote:
    The leaders we have elected/enriched are eventually going to kill us all. Humanity will eat itself.
    Spoiler:

    I still think there's hope. I don't think the poorer nations of the world will blame Western leaders, I think they'll blame us, the consumers, the ones knowingly fucking it up and pretending it's inevitable. We really are a bunch of privileged cunts that couldn't really give two fucks about equality or poverty at the end of the day.

    Surely even if we can slow it it's worth trying without a fight.

    It's like saying the Tories have won so we might as well not bother paying taxes or voting because it's all fucked anyway.

    If you can't beat then join them. Pass the beef and lower taxes. Is that it?

    It's now time to take some actual, personal responsibility imo. And guess what, that means actually sacrificing some part of our decadent lifestyle rather than just pretending to give a fuck about the poor and kidding ourselves not voting Tory is doing something useful.

    I'd rather people keep wolfing shit down and admitting they don't give a shit than pretending they care.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • Paul the sparky
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    Eat less meat, is it?
  • Yossarian
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    I haven’t eaten meat in decades, don’t fly very often, don’t drive, recycle, don’t currently have pets, haven’t had kids, don’t tend to buy unnecessary tat (too much of it anyway). This has gone on for most of my life.

    Honestly, the only further real lifestyle change I can make is going full vegan.

    I feel like I’ve done more than most in the west to stop this from happening yet here we are, so you’ll forgive me if I’m unimpressed with the notion of taking more personal responsibility for this shitshow.
  • Yeah the neolib personal conduct thing is horrendously limited as a means to actually solve the crises. People will choose and consume what is available and easy, it's up to administrative entities to define those spaces with fucking laws. This requires courage in the face of Mammon, which they've been singularly crap at demonstrating thus far.

    I'll go vegan and sackloth if literally forced to and not before. I will vote for people who are pushing that, and probably put up with new inconveniences if there is a clear and robust plan of execution developed and described to me.
  • GooberTheHat
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    It's definitely the individual consumers fault, and not governments and big business/industry.
  • The Conservative capitalist belief in ‘the market’ having power to solve everything is fundamentally flawed. ‘The market’ is us lot and we can only make choices based on options presented at price points we can afford. We do not have unfettered and complete freedom, our economy is not a ‘free market’.

    If you’re reliant on a food bank, you’re eating whatever is offered. Not making a choice to consume ethically.
  • Escape
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    I know it'd be massively unpopular, but I'd welcome a limit on holiday flights, plus green-offset taxes for business ones.
  • That would definitely piss me off, and I think they could hit other things before that.
  • Escape
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    It's down the list but needs looking at. We're not grounding planes in 2050 if the aero industry fails to meet their emissions target, and they know that.

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