Le Tour de France (and other cycling) Thread
  • So...Lance Armstrong...

    Innocent or Guilty?
  • Paul the sparky
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    Guilty surely. It looks like he doesn't want it to go any further as he'd be found guilty in the end.

    Like Michael Jackson stumping up millions of dollars just so he couldn't be labled a nonce.
  • It is the year 2256 and the Great World Landfill Resource Mining Quest continues in earnest. A curiously rich seam of yellow rubber is discovered; the children shall have new shoes.
  • Knight wrote:
    What happened?

    Had the bike on my roof rack and drove under a low archway. Just a moment of forgetfulness and bang - £1700 of bike wiped :(

    Was only 40 mins before my half-ironman race so it put a slight dampner on the start. I came out of the swim and found one of our lads had pulled out so I jumped on his bike and finished the course (even though his bike was way too small - made the run interesting).

    Spoke to the local bike shop today and they agreed that it's totalled.
  • Ouch, that sucks to hear hawk. Have any insurance or something? Would it even be covered by an accident like that?
  • No evidence against Armstrong apart from some coerced testimony. Certainly would not hold up in any court.
  • If the evidence was weak he could clear his name. I bet he could afford a good lawyer.
  • Not when those bringing the case have already decided his guilt, no.
  • Am I right in thinking, he's never failed a drugs test?

    Surely innocent until proven guilty.
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  • Never failed a test. Not that that seems to matter. I dont think they even know what drug they think he took.
  • Paul the sparky
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    It's not innocent until proven guilty as he won't let it go to a trial. He'd rather accept the punishment and have his titles stripped than let it go to a trial, as without one he can't be proven to be guilty.

    I can't help but think that if he was innocent and the evidence against him was easy to disprove, then he'd just go to a trial and clear his name once and for all, keeping his titles to boot.
  • It's not a trial, though.

    The statute of limitations is 8 years, they've ignored their own rules time and again. It's a farce.

    He might be guilty, but the process is a mess.
  • It's not innocent until proven guilty as he won't let it go to a trial. He'd rather accept the punishment and have his titles stripped than let it go to a trial, as without one he can't be proven to be guilty.

    I can't help but think that if he was innocent and the evidence against him was easy to disprove, then he'd just go to a trial and clear his name once and for all, keeping his titles to boot.

    Why should he have to go to trial, though?

    I assume that, over the years, he would have taken hundreds of drug tests, and all came back clean.

    I expect that even if he went to this trial, and cleared his name, there'd be more accusations in a few years time.
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  • Armstrong sounds like a complete cunt. This article in the guardian covers it pretty well.
    I find it crazy that some people still think he's not a cheating fuck.

    Three people that could have testified (also from the guardian):

    The journalist:
    "I wrote four books about the guy. All the evidence was out there since 2004 and people will still say there is no evidence. To me there was a wilful conspiracy on the part of sporting officials, journalists, broadcasters, everybody. Now we see the fruits of it: high-level cyclinghas been destroyed by corruption.

    "I would have preferred it if Lance Armstrong had gone to a tribunal and we would have had all the evidence out there. But he has decided to accept these charges because it was the lesser of two evils from his perspective.
    "It is not good for him because he has been stripped of his seven Tour de France titles and has been given a lifetime ban. He has lost every victory he has had since 1998, but the alternative was even worse – to have a tribunal in which the evidence from 10 former team-mates who all say they saw him doping would have been aired in graphic detail.

    "That detail would have portrayed Lance Armstrong as a doper. It would have opened the eyes of the public to what the US Anti-Doping Agency believe was one of the greatest, most sophisticated doping conspiracies in the history of sport.

    "How did Armstrong get away with this for all these years? Who was complicit in helping him avoid detection? Because there is one certainty – he did not do this without help.

    "Bradley Wiggins is the patron of the Tour and the whole sport. As the winner, he is the spiritual and almost moral leader of the peloton. As an anti-doping Tour winner, I would expect Bradley to say this is good for the sport … we want the guys who cheated to be outed, but there is not a lot of that coming from the sport and that makes me wonder if they are truly committed to cleaning themselves up."

    David Walsh, author and sportswriter on the Sunday Times, has written four books on Lance Armstrong. He was speaking to BBC Radio 5 on Friday

    The Masseuse:
    As Lance Armstrong's masseuse, Emma O' Reilly saw much of the cyclist's body and spent a lot of time with him after his races. She was also a key member of the US Postal cycling team during the 1999 Tour de France and was given important tasks.

    O'Reilly was a source for David Walsh's book about Armstrong, LA Confidentiel. According to the book, O'Reilly said she heard team officials worrying about Armstrong's positive test for steroids during the Tour. She said: "They were in a panic, saying: 'What are we going to do? What are we going to do?' "

    Their solution was to get one of their compliant doctors to issue a pre-dated prescription for a steroid-based ointment to combat saddle sores. O'Reilly said she would have known if Armstrong had saddle sores as she would have administered any treatment for it.

    O'Reilly said that Armstrong told her: "Now, Emma, you know enough to bring me down." O'Reilly said on other occasions she was asked to dispose of used syringes for Armstrong and pick up strange parcels for the team.
    In a letter to Bill Strickland, a Bicycling magazine correspondent, last year, O'Reilly described her experience. "Since I spoke to David Walsh, I have received so many subpoenas that the policewoman who brought them got friendly enough with my boyfriend that she would call before coming and he'd put the kettle on for her.

    "If my word is so worthless, why did I go to France and testify to the French drug squad? I worked the '98 Tour de France, and I know how scary these guys can be, yet I was prepared to go to France, to their territory. I went because I was telling the truth, and also because a certain Mr Armstrong sued me for a million euros because of my interview with David … why did Lance feel the need to terrorise me for more than two years? Why did Lance feel the need to try to break me?"

    The Cyclist:
    Christophe Bassons became an accidental star of road cycling when he was the only member of the notorious Festina team who was not implicated in drug-taking. His reputation as an honest cyclist made it impossible for him to prosper in the world of professional cycling in the 1990s.

    Festina was immersed in scandal in 1998 when a carload of drugs for the team was discovered. In the subsequent police investigation, Bassons was the one rider who emerged with his character enhanced after his team-mates told police that he was the only cyclist who did not take drugs.

    From obscurity, Bassons emerged as one of the few cyclists who would criticise drug-taking in the sport. He spoke for many when he complained that the sport had "two speeds", one for the drug-takers and one for people like who him who did not cheat.

    During the 1999 Tour de France Bassons was asked to write a column for the newspaper, Le Parisen. The Tour featured the return of Lance Armstrong after his battle with cancer. Basson wrote that the riders were shocked by the speed of Armstrong. Armstrong later cycled up to Bassons to remonstrate with him and encouraged him to leave the Tour. Later on French TV, Armstrong admitted the conversation. "His accusations aren't good for cycling, for his team, for me, for anybody. If he thinks cycling works like that, he's wrong and he would be better off going home," he said.

    Other riders threatened him and most ignored him. Bassons could not take the pressure and left the Tour.
    Bassons tried to race elsewhere but his reputation preceded him and he gave up in 2001. The cyclist had been a very successful amateur rider but his professional career was overshadowed by his refusal to take drugs and remain quiet about it. He now works for the French ministry of sports and youth, with responsibility for drug testing.
  • I'm pretty sure the federal government decided there wasn't evidence to support a conviction.

    The UCI too. US Cycling also.

    Lots of people in lots of sports seem very uneasy about the USADA's conduct. I find some of the language they've used before, during and after pretty troubling. They made it highly personal.
  • The journalist with a tale to spin and a jealous cyclist? Really?

    Armstrong was outstanding in his youth and outstanding during his comeback. Was he doping aged 21 or 37?
  • Yeah, it's probably all a big conspiracy against him.
  • If there is any evidence, it's not in the public domain. But the years of clean tests are.
  • I do wish he'd taken them on.
  • Marion Jones never tested positive either.

    Her case seems to mirror Lances quite a bit.
  • Similar. Main difference being that she did admit it (eventually), and that the US DoJ decided there was a case to answer. They took the opposite view with Lance.

    So no criminal charges are pending for Armstrong.
  • So what's going to be the ultimate end to all this, for either possibility? Or is this going to be another thing that just disappears into the journalistic ether?


    Also, here's a pic of my bike fully loaded. Not sure if I posted one before. Every now and then I need to remind myself that, yes, I did ride across the US and a chunk of France. Pretty cool if I do say so myself.
    ZsVAVl.jpg
  • Nice saddle ;-)
    Wii U Themagickman - PSN - Themagickman   Xboxlive - Themagickman
  • He's guilty. That or he beat the best riders of his generation 7 times in a row, whilst they were all doped up to their eye balls, clean. Too many people, with absolutely no axe to grind, have made accusations. The masseuse for example. He's never shied away from a fight before, why now? It's as clear as day.
    GT: Knight640
  • Kernowgaz wrote:
    Nice saddle ;-)

    Thanks, much less saddle sores than my constantly adjusting cycling pal. That's what he gets for not researching!
  • Only done a bit of touring on the bike , but it really used to piss me off having to break the tent up and make again every day .

    Had a week cycling around the picos de Europa in northern Spain , which was really good but we didn't go in season and no proper campsites were open ( good research from us ) , luckily a place let us use the facilities but the shower only had cold water - fuck it was cold !!!!

    Did a 2 week tour of Brittany that probably included about 60 miles a day and lots beer at night , it was good 5 of us in sunny Brittany .

    The best one was cycling from Roscoff to Santander which was about 800 miles in about 11 days . The  worst part was when I was cycling along and I was playing with the speedometer when it fell from the bike and i decided to catch it and put my hand in the front wheel . I went over the handlebars with a pannier laden bike landing on top of me , in the middle of the road with a snapped seat post. Luckily no serious damage but had to ride 20 miles with a bodged seatpost - it was horrible. 

    Mainly do a bit of road riding to keep some fitness for when I go mtbiking which I do on dartmoor with the occasional trip to Afan in south Wales ( amazing man made Mtb trails )
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  • cockbeard
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    Bike bought, collect tomorrow, liked the Giant Roam, but upon closer inspection it was too road based. I do wanna hit trails a couple of times a month. Ended up plunking for the Giant Revel ltd 1, choice was limited by local store and work bike scheme, but it's a comfy bike and feels sturdy enough to manage the odd four foot drop. Cue you guys telling me it's terrible, reviews were hard to come by. Why is there so little representation of the mtb community online?
    "I spent years thinking Yorke was legit Downs-ish disabled and could only achieve lucidity through song" - Mr B
  • Ouch, that sucks to hear hawk. Have any insurance or something? Would it even be covered by an accident like that?

    Insurance should cover it. In the process of getting quotes etc just now. Hope to have an answer tomorrow.

    Re Armstrong - he failed a test in 99 but the UCI lost his B sample (around about the same time he made a large donation to the UCI weirdly?). Also l'Equipe ran an expose on 6 failed EPO tests from 99. He has avoided the fight so that he can keep some of his, less lucid, supporters onside (and protect his brand as much as possible)

    Also he's not the most tested athlete in history. He's not even the most tested Armstrong in cycling, that honour falls to female cyclist Kristen Armstrong.
  • @Kernowgaz
    Yeah, I bought a quick to set up tent for that purpose. Could get everything off the bike and into a setup tent in 15 mins if I really went for it.

    The trip across America was quite the trip but I don't think I'd ever do such a long distance one again. I like the short trips like riding from Paris to Bordeaux. Could do it in just around a week and you still get to see amazing things.

    I was lucky to not have a fall on the trip until the last time we rode (actually that's annoying when I think of it, so close).

    I think I might do some small trips around the UK or Europe if I get settled in London. It's handy that places in Europe are so close together.

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