IndyRef3 or 4 or 2, I forget - The Bear and Badger

cockbeard

A conversation started over twitter and I said clearly that 140 characters wasn't enough to have that conversation

I may sound patronising and that's not my intent but I genuinely don't see any benefits, so in that case alone I need educating, and probably in many more cases as well. Still fail to see where the bonus is, but hopefully someone can tell me

Tempy

Surely 280 characters is enough though

poprock

I can do it in three: Escaping Tory rule.

afgavinstan

poprock wrote:

I can do it in three: Escaping Tory rule.

Paul the sparky

poprock wrote:

I can do it in three: Escaping Tory rule.

Anything worth doing can be simplified into a three word slogan, any more nuance and you're a racist or something.

cockbeard

poprock wrote:

I can do it in three: Escaping Tory rule.

That sounds fair enough, and is in fact the response I expected, being as I live (pretty much) in London, I expect the same here. However "Tory rule" has been in place since the first indyref so what is substantively different??

afgavinstan

Brexit. And our clear resistance to it.

cockbeard

But once again, that was made very clear 2.5 years ago when that referendum happened. What is different?

That said any chance I could find at reversing Brexit I'd jump at, I think Brexit could work (if it had to), but not with the fucking idiots we have in charge of the country

Brooks

It's going to be a bit odd if a detached Scotland doesn't immediately sign up to the EU.

regmcfly

See ya

g.man

*moved to off topic*

poprock

The Scottish indyref happened and was a close decision.

Then Brexit came along – something that fundamentally changes the nation-state that Scotland narrowly agreed to stay part of. The UK we’re now part of is not the same UK we narrowly voted to stay in.

The two Westminster elections since have served to demonstrate how potitically/ideologically separate the two countries are.

The gut feeling is that if another indyref is offered it won’t go the same way again.

cockbeard

The brexit referendum happened, Sturgeon pressed for IndyRef2, it didn't happen, I might have missed something

I may be doing it an injustice but given the last Indyref result, I don't think SNP means independence, I think it means anyone but the tories, which is a fair place to be

HawBawJaws

cockbeard wrote:

But once again, that was made very clear 2.5 years ago when that referendum happened. What is different?

That said any chance I could find at reversing Brexit I'd jump at, I think Brexit could work (if it had to), but not with the fucking idiots we have in charge of the country

It was also made very clear in 2014 that the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the UK, look how that turned out. A lot of people would have voted to remain in the UK based on that. Don't get me wrong, there was other stuff, like 'lead us, don't leave us' then the NEXT FUCKING DAY they introduced EVEL.

I was discussing it with a mate earlier, you ever been at a party, or club, or gathering, with a mate who's got really pissed and started making an arse of themselves, saying the place is shit, the foods terrible they're all arseholes etc, and you need to tell the hosts/bouncer/whoever 'look, I'm gonna get him out of here and up the road in a taxi, so I'm leaving, but we're cool, aye? OK if I come back once I've got shot of this clown?'

That's how I'm viewing the whole uk/EU thing for Scotland. We're leaving the EU party, not because we want to, but because the guy we arrived with is making a cunt of himself. We're just gonna get disentangled from them, then we'll be back.

HawBawJaws

And technically, the next indyref will be indyref3, if you count the one in the 70s, 80s before my time anyway, where Westminster fucked us with a turnout clause.

poprock

cockbeard wrote:

The brexit referendum happened, Sturgeon pressed for IndyRef2, it didn't happen, I might have missed something

Aye, sort of. It’s actually the Government in Westminster who have missed something.

Sturgeon applied to Westminster for a second referendum in March 2017, based on Brexit being a clusterfuck we want no part of. Westminster have not replied. At all.

Which is now seen as bolstering Scotland’s chances of a legal approach, using the courts to force GovUK to respond.

HawBawJaws

poprock wrote:

cockbeard wrote:

The brexit referendum happened, Sturgeon pressed for IndyRef2, it didn't happen, I might have missed something

Aye, sort of. It’s actually the Government in Westminster who have missed something.

Sturgeon applied to Westminster for a second referendum in March 2017, based on Brexit being a clusterfuck we want no part of. Westminster have not replied. At all.

Which is now seen as bolstering Scotland’s chances of a legal approach, using the courts to force GovUK to respond.

Yup, that's my guess. I think the snp kinda want Westminster to keep refusing it, then they can prove that they have no legal right to keep blocking it. I mean legislation has been passed in holyrood for it, hasn't it? They're basically fucking with our legal system at that point, and as the whole shutting down parliament thing proved, the Scottish courts can overrule them.

Interesting times ahead, either way.

poprock

I’m very unclear on the legal stuff, maybe Gonz can help there. I think there’s something about Scots law being the OG legal system so it can kick English law to the kerb. On some matters, anyway.

HawBawJaws

poprock wrote:

I’m very unclear on the legal stuff, maybe Gonz can help there. I think there’s something about Scots law being the OG legal system so it can kick English law to the kerb. On some matters, anyway.

Aye, I think there's wording that says Scots law 'has no equal' or something like that, pretty sure it also mentions something about the people being sovereign or some such. But like you, I'm no lawyer, happy to defer to those that know better than me.

Paul the sparky

Aye, I think they tested that out with Bohnson and the prorogation shit.

HawBawJaws

Paul the sparky wrote:

Aye, I think they tested that out with Bohnson and the prorogation shit.

Aye, that's the one. Must admit, I was absolutely tickled seeing the reaction to the judgement on twitter from the far right gammon crowd. Support for Scottish independence shot up after that, but in England.

HawBawJaws

Back to the op, not seeing the bonus of being independent, here's a few:

As mentioned, getting away from the tories. But more than that, actually getting the government we vote for,

Control over our own finances etc, remember that Scottish exports are attributed to the UK as a whole, we'd get that back,

Hopefully getting shot of trident,

Not being lumbered with debt for things that don't directly benefit us (hs2, that recent airport expansion),

Being able to control our own borders - we actually need more immigration in Scotland, not less, like the rUK seems to think,

There's more of course, but I'm fucked today and riding a massive slump of depression, so that's all my brain can come up with just now.

EvilRedEye

Err, yeah, if Scotland breaks off and rejoins the EU I don't think you guys will need to worry about not having enough immigrants for quite a while.

HawBawJaws

EvilRedEye wrote:

Err, yeah, if Scotland breaks off and rejoins the EU I don't think you guys will need to worry about not having enough immigrants for quite a while.

Hahe, aye, English and Welsh ones most likely.

cockbeard

HawBawJaws wrote:

Back to the op, not seeing the bonus of being independent, here's a few: As mentioned,

getting away from the tories. But more than that, actually getting the government we vote for

cool, that's genuinely interesting to me, becasue I don't know, please excuse my simple uneducated responses

HawBawJaws wrote:

Control over our own finances etc, remember that Scottish exports are attributed to the UK as a whole, we'd get that back

Do you have any finances, I mean London pays for free degrees and teeth, what happens if that disappears? I don't know, maybe you increase the duty on Scotch, and that covers it all, but it might not be enough to cover it all

HawBawJaws wrote:

Hopefully getting shot of trident

Massive employer though, I bet Liverpool and Sunderland would be massively grateful to pick up the slack

HawBawJaws wrote:

Not being lumbered with debt for things that don't directly benefit us (hs2, that recent airport expansion)

No idea what this doesn't mean

HawBawJaws wrote:

Being able to control our own borders - we actually need more immigration in Scotland, not less, like the rUK seems to think, There's more of course, but I'm fucked today and riding a massive slump of depression, so that's all my brain can come up with just now.

Borders, thats the shitty reason s dickheads down here voted to leave the EU, seriosuly, don;t gain independence then sling it away on arguments like that

GooberTheHat

HawBawJaws wrote:

EvilRedEye wrote:

Err, yeah, if Scotland breaks off and rejoins the EU I don't think you guys will need to worry about not having enough immigrants for quite a while.

Hahe, aye, English and Welsh ones most likely.

Hi, although I might be Irish then.

Gremill

Getting rid of trident is a big one for me. I'm sorry, but for me the moral case for not having those horrific tools of destruction in the country far outweighs the employment one. If Liverpool or the mackems want it, they can have it.

Scotland has a real opportunity to use that engineering and technology knowhow to become a world leader in renewables instead of being complicit it potentially world ending shite like that.

HawBawJaws

We do have finances, aye. I've mentioned it in another thread, but Scotland is a net contributor to the UK. We pay slightly more in than we get back.

The debt thing: Westminster decides to spend billions on the high speed rail network. That doesn't reach Scotland, so we get no benefit from it. But, we still pay towards it.

I'll go into the other points in more detail another time, as I said, I'm riding the crest of a slump just now and I'll just come across as dickish.

monkey

I don’t see how the border can work post-Brexit. You’ll be in the same position as NI. Custom checks.

HawBawJaws

From memory, the snp never mentioned a border, it was Westminster. Think millibland tried to show he would be a strong leader by saying he'd put troops in the North of England or something similar.

Sure I remember some prominent political type saying they'd rebuild hadrians wall, quickly dropped it when someone pointed it that'd bring the border further south.

afgavinstan

I got invited to a fb group called REBUILD THE WALL off an old cex colleague.

I've now blocked him.

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