The not at all pretentious(!) video game debate thread - The Bear and Badger

Mouldywarp

EDIT: Changed the subject name due to unforeseen vitriol due to poor choice of wording

I've started this thread to debate a range of topics, mainly concerning theÂ culturalÂ aspects of video games and how they function (or fail) as a medium for artistic expression. Hopefully it will be fun!

First topic: Emotions

"I think emotion is the end goal (of the medium). We can do it using storytelling, which is what we (Quantic Dream) try to achieve. Or you can look at Journey...the goal is still to create emotion and get emotional involvement from the player."

David Cage, Quantic Dream co-founder

Â

"(Journey used to be) a lot more gamey... if it's very challenging, you're set into a mood of problem solving, rather than paying attention to each other. Journey's not about solving puzzles - it's about sharing the same emotional moment together."

Jenova Chen, Thatgamecompany's creative director

Â

"Not since Shadow Of The Colossus had so little gameplay provoked so much spiritual crisis."

Brian Howe on Journey, You're playing it wrong, Edge #241

So then: emotions. Do we need or even want them in games? Does gameplay and "gamey-ness" really have to be sacrificed to enhahnce emotional content or can more traditional games still have an emotional resonance with gamers? Are so few games emotionally involving because of a lack of imagination on the developers part or is it just that games are not a great medium for dealing with such issues?

Unlikely

No, and you should not and etc.

Unlikely

Seriously, end it here.

hylian_elf

Fuck off, thread title.

Tempy

You're a good guy, don't do this, you've got so much going for you

Mouldywarp

I don't get it

Mouldywarp

I'm genuinely interested. I haven't got an agenda or anything.

dynamiteReady

I've been around for a while, and I don't get it either. But I've always been a bit funny like that... : P

Brooks

I want to crush this thread with much more than mere Internet will allow.

regmcfly

DIS THRED WOT IT LIEK EH

Sasukekun

The art debate has been done to death in the Edge sector, it's a thing that, is a sort of unwritten rule that no one asks.
Is it art? I believe this year a US think tank has decreed that they will officially be recognised as such alongside movies, music and books. But otherwise it's entirely subjective.

Matt_82

Is anyone else getting a warning about malware when they click on the Tokyo Zoo thread?

Are you brave enough to click on the thread now that I've said that?

dynamiteReady

Sasukekun wrote:

The art debate has been done to death in the Edge sector, it's a thing that, is a sort of unwritten rule that no one asks. Is it art? I believe this year a US think tank has decreed that they will officially be recognised as such alongside movies, music and books. But otherwise it's entirely subjective.

And there you go...

At least someone is out there listening to me. ~_~

adkm1979

Did any of you read the OP? Â Or did you just read the title and decide to throw a hissy fit because you assumed you knew what it was going to be about?

g.man

Yeah, it's the dreaded Are Games Art? thread.Â
Overdone topic on the previous EDGE boards the inclusion of which right here was sure to generate howls of derision from the balconies.
However, Mouldywarp is a decent sort, and if he wants to discuss this topic here with anyone who might have a similar interest then that really should be all well and good.
Don't like the thread? Well, there's plenty of other threads, so just walk on by.

tolerance innit

g.man

Tempy

It simply doesn't matter. The art thing.

The emotion thing? That we can and probably will discuss now the hexes have been laid down.

I'm watching Breaking Bad now but my short answer would be "we need games that can make us feel but we also need games that are simply enjoyable without any 'emotional' requirement"

dynamiteReady

adkm1979 wrote:

Did any of you read the OP? Â Or did you just read the title and decide to throw a hissy fit because you assumed you knew what it was going to be about?

Of course we didn't fucking read it. Are you mad?

Unlikely

Ahahaha, this forum is in danger of becoming a desperate love in.Â Yes, I read the OP, yes, I posted a thing.Â Yes, those who don't like it can fuck off.Â Are we all happy?

EDIT:Â I AM TWILIGHT HEAR ME

g.man

Mouldywarp wrote:

SoÂ then:Â emotions.Â DoÂ weÂ needÂ orÂ evenÂ wantÂ themÂ in games?Â DoesÂ gameplayÂ andÂ "gamey-ness"Â reallyÂ haveÂ toÂ beÂ sacrificedÂ toÂ enhahnceÂ emotionalÂ contentÂ orÂ can more traditional gamesÂ stillÂ haveÂ anÂ emotionalÂ resonanceÂ withÂ gamers? Are so few games emotionally involving because of aÂ lackÂ ofÂ imaginationÂ onÂ theÂ developersÂ part or is it just that games are not a great medium for dealing with such issues?

I've long held the belief the games are an incredibly emotional experience. It's not really some top-secter-super-magic ingredient that developers have to add with a long pair of tongs. It really boils down to having a response to an experience you are actively influencing. Sure, there aren't many games that will make you cry (although there are plenty that will make you weep), there are a metric fucktonne of games either online or SP that are going to give you that FUCK YEAH! punching the air feeling.
Similarly, even the games that are frustrating you are arguable causing an even more extreme emotional response. I'm damn sure we've all had a hurl the pad across the room moment or two.

Were I to write a list of emotions I could think of off the top of my head, I'm pretty certain I'd be able to think of a gaming experience I've had down through the years that I could apply that emotion to.

regards

g.man

Mouldywarp

Ok, I get it now! Sorry, the thread subject was actually supposed to be slightlyÂ tongue-in-cheek! At no point was I actually going to ask that question.

The key issue IÂ haveÂ with the emotion thing, and the reason I picked those quotes specifically, is that I generally believe the gameÂ aspectÂ of a video game should always come first. I don't believe in the idea ofÂ sacrificingÂ good game design just because they believe it interferes with the "emotional experience" they areÂ attemptingÂ to create.

g.man

I think that's probably the crux of my point though I'll concede I probably didn't express it very well. Seems to me like designers are forever looking to add some holy grail of emotion to their titles while at the same time completely missing the point that games by their very nature generate emotional response in the player by the bucketload anyway.

regards

g.man

three1ne

David Cage misses the point every time although he seems to try the hardest.

hylian_elf

You should change the thread title. Or not, seeing as you already have a crowd/audience.

Mouldywarp wrote:

The key issue IÂ haveÂ with the emotion thing, and the reason I picked those quotes specifically, is that I generally believe the gameÂ aspectÂ of a video game should always come first. I don't believe in the idea ofÂ sacrificingÂ good game design just because they believe it interferes with the "emotional experience" they areÂ attemptingÂ to create.

Nothing wrong with sacrificing one aspect of a game to achieve another. To answer your OP q's:

Mouldywarp wrote:

So then: emotions. Do we need or even want them in games? Does gameplay and "gamey-ness" really have to be sacrificed to enhahnce emotional content or can more traditional games still have an emotional resonance with gamers? Are so few games emotionally involving because of a lack of imagination on the developers part or is it just that games are not a great medium for dealing with such issues?

Yes, don't know, first bit.

Mouldywarp

The thing about Cage is that he really seems to be wanting to direct films. Why does he not just do that? Everything he wants to do with video games are things films are great at doing but that games aren't.

WorKid

g.man wrote:

Seems to me like designers are forever looking to add some holy grail of emotion to their titles while at the same time completely missing the point that games by their very nature generate emotional response in the player by the bucketload anyway.

Spot on.

They also tend to focus on a very, very narrow range of "emotions" - ooh boo hoo, fucking Aeris is dead.

TBH, I don't want much of that crap in my games. A good story, yes. Nice graphics, yes. A lovely soundtrack, of course.

hylian_elf

WorKid wrote:

g.man wrote:

Seems to me like designers are forever looking to add some holy grail of emotion to their titles while at the same time completely missing the point that games by their very nature generate emotional response in the player by the bucketload anyway.

Spot on. They also tend to focus on a very, very narrow range of "emotions" - ooh boo hoo, fucking Aeris is dead. TBH, I don't want much of that crap in my games. A good story, yes. Nice graphics, yes. A lovely soundtrack, of course.

YOU BASTARRRRRDDDD!!! Allow me to return the favour. Darth Vader is Luke's father. Hah! TAKE THAT!!

[Deleted User]

Mouldywarp wrote:

The thing about Cage is that he really seems to be wanting to direct films. Why does he not just do that? Everything he wants to do with video games are things films are great at doing but that games aren't.

i love games more than movies so if i could make either id pick game everytime.

thing i really like about cage is that he try's to do something diffrent.
everyone moans about militry style fps games all the time but at least this guys trying and taking risks.

woulda loved to see what coulda become of 'kara' though being a massive g.i.t.s. fan.

WorKid

What? But he's... oh my GOD!

three1ne

Cage has it all wrong. He cant write anything cohesive. None of his games would hold up that well in cinema.

dynamiteReady

Well... Now that the overly harsh reaction has subsided, I wouldn't mind discussing 'The Last Of Us'. Given the number of murders we've all re-enacting through games, why were so many of us so put out by the violence on evidence in that particular title.

That's undoubtedly calculated.

How the fuck do I keep catching these page turns?

hylian_elf

Erm...were we? I mean were you? I have yet to view the latest trailer/vid. Didn't bother looking it up cos it's a zombie game and it's by Naughty Dog (I'm not an Uncharted fan).

Howdy, Stranger!

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