Deathloop - Round and round we go - The Bear and Badger

stonechalice

The games of today are not even half of what games were ten - fifteen years ago. We're all paying much more for less. Triple A games are so by the numbers now they're barely worth bothering with. It's nice to see a game like Deathloop get some love, but I don't see it as a benchmark for anything.

b0r1s

Old man raging at the sky. And music isn’t what it used to be etc.

Bob

Well he's right about that...

Thing is games are better than ever and there's more variety than ever but as they've gotten more expensive the consumer has become more risk averse and publishers don't give developers too many chances.. couple of duds and the doors are closed... If you are interested in new IP buy them. Day one. Don't wait for a discount.

Yossarian

But then there’s also a thriving indie scene that offers loads of new experiences and ideas and innovation.

Yossarian

And fuck paying £70 for a game that I’m not sure I’m going to love.

Escape

Yossarian wrote:

But then there’s also a thriving indie scene that offers loads of new experiences and ideas and innovation.

The tragedy is that people were saying that in the '00s and here we are. A lot of Christmas releases this year are franchise 5s and 6s.

Returnal and Deathloop stand out in that regard.

Yossarian

I don’t think that negates anything I’ve said? Sure, the Christmas release schedule has become dominated by a handful of mega-franchises, but outside of that, the indie scene now is massively bigger than it was back in the ‘00s, there are loads more indie games coming out, more routes to market, tooling that has improved massively allowing for a much higher standard of presentation and so on.

I’m also pretty sure that if we were able to look back at the maroonrum we would find many of the same complaints about risk aversion and samey experiences then as there are now.

drumbeg

I think we may all agree that the high scores across the board have done this game no favours in how it is being received by gamers. I much prefer the Eurogamer style of recommended/essential, but even then, an essential gets interpreted as a 10 by score aggregators.

This is an 8 by the way.

Anyway, I'm finding that I get a PvP Julianna invasion every single time I start a level, as soon as I exit the tunnel. Would like it to be a bit more random than that, as thrilling as it is. This also means I'm not really having to take out visionaries for most slab upgrades.

Escape

Yossarian wrote:

I’m also pretty sure that if we were able to look back at the maroonrum we would find many of the same complaints about risk aversion and samey experiences then as there are now.

That's what I meant: I was getting at the adoption angle, where posters on PC Gamer's old forum in particular were hopeful of an indie vanguard. Roguelikes and crafting have crossed over; anything else?

Yossarian

Battle Royales, for sure.

But most types of games you’ll be able to find examples from both big and small devs, surely?

JonB

stonechalice wrote:

The games of today are not even half of what games were ten - fifteen years ago. We're all paying much more for less. Triple A games are so by the numbers now they're barely worth bothering with. It's nice to see a game like Deathloop get some love, but I don't see it as a benchmark for anything.

The thing is for me, it was 10-15 years ago that it was getting very dull and predictable. More and more games were streamlined, hand-holding cinematic experiences. The early 2000s to the first years of the 360/PS3 were pretty barren for me, and it took Dark Souls and some indies to shake that up. Now there's a wider range of games at all levels than ever. That means more of the same old shit, of course, but also more innovation.

Escape

BRs, o' course.

But I'm unsure we've arrived at that hoped-for future where indies and big-money games have fallen in mutually beneficial creative concert. Not that I've given it enough thought to nail that on. Life Is Strange: True Colors is a recent example of the twain.

Much as I complain about franchises, I find it disappointing that Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, Edith Finch and others get left behind. More in the same creative mould'd be nice.

Yossarian

I’m not really sure that indies and major pubs should be doing the same sort of thing, to be honest. Indies should be about offering alternatives to what’s on offer from the majors, this is the case in pretty much any creative field you care to name. If the major publishers were offering what the indie scene was offering, there wouldn’t be any need for an indie scene.

JonB

drumbeg wrote:

I think we may all agree that the high scores across the board have done this game no favours in how it is being received by gamers. I much prefer the Eurogamer style of recommended/essential, but even then, an essential gets interpreted as a 10 by score aggregators.

It's also worth pointing out that Metacritic artificially inflates scores with its method. For them 10/10 or 5/5 = 100. But when you're working on a 5 point scale, it's just meant as a rough guide. If you want to get mathematical about it, it covers 81-100%, an average of 90.5%.

Paul the sparky

Escape

Yossarian wrote:

If the major publishers were offering what the indie scene was offering, there wouldn’t be any need for an indie scene.

Depends how you view indie: as too untested to throw money at, or a deliberate counterculture.

I think it'd be good if Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo had ideas divisions, with a single large team split into several middleware-supported groups to punt out six-monthly concepts.

regmcfly

Escape wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

If the major publishers were offering what the indie scene was offering, there wouldn’t be any need for an indie scene.

Depends how you view indie: as too untested to throw money at, or a deliberate counterculture.

I think it'd be good if Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo had ideas divisions, with a single large team split into several middleware-supported groups to punt out six-monthly concepts.

... they do. At least Nintendo does.

Escape

Why hasn't someone been crafty and smuggled in a Pilotwings?

Yossarian

Escape wrote:

I think it'd be good if Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo had ideas divisions, with a single large team split into several middleware-supported groups to punt out six-monthly concepts.

From all accounts, Microsoft are allowing their devs full creative freedom, so if that’s what they want to do, they should be able to do it.

There’s some talk that Double Fine may be going back to bring a multi-project studio, Obsidian have three or four teams working on various things at the moment.

Whether they’ll be doing six month projects or not will be up to them.

Escape

Game Pass is a great home for creative gambles, but where's the price going...

Yossarian

Probably nowhere for a good few years yet. Maybe once Microsoft hit 50 or 100m subscribers that might change.

Escape

They've got me at the Randolph and Mortimer price.

Speedhaak

stonechalice wrote:

The games of today are not even half of what games were ten - fifteen years ago. We're all paying much more for less. Triple A games are so by the numbers now they're barely worth bothering with.

This is why I have started to see this trend with me by where usually now every summer I take a few months off games and just enjoy the long evenings and other mediums. And even now, I am back playing a little and it's Destiny I have gravitated towards.

Bob

Yossarian wrote:

But then there’s also a thriving indie scene that offers loads of new experiences.

Yes that's why its' actually better than ever cos there's lots of different avenues to explore now.

b0r1s

Bob speaks the truth, gaming is better than it's ever been from a choice viewpoint.

Escape

Going back to what Jon said:

The thing is for me, it was 10-15 years ago that it was getting very dull and predictable. More and more games were streamlined, hand-holding cinematic experiences. The early 2000s to the first years of the 360/PS3 were pretty barren for me, and it took Dark Souls and some indies to shake that up. Now there's a wider range of games at all levels than ever. That means more of the same old shit, of course, but also more innovation.

That was the broadband era when 360 and PS3 led a console multiplayer boom. The best Call of Duty, Bad Company, Uncharted, and so on. Also the high years of the PS2's most creative output.

Big multi- versus singleplayer split overall, so preferences, but I'm a bit surprised by your lack of affection for the latterday PS2. I loved the PS3's early online years, but think most of those series have gone downhill since.

Escape

stonechalice

I've already posted that.

drumbeg

Does anyone else get invaded 100% of the time on starting a level with a visionary present? I do. Would prefer it to be occasionally. Not every single time I try to take out a target.

FranticPea

I've been invaded alot the last few times I've played. It's very tedious.

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