Why we'll never have a real life SkyNet - let's talk about AI in games - The Bear and Badger

Blocks100

Inspired by 'crayon's recent post about the AI in Deathloop being deliberately bland - when is the last time you played a videogame and thought - 'damn, that be some smart AI!' Why has AI in games never really progressed beyond the 'smoke and mirrors' AI of Half Life? Why is it always the last to be listed as a selling feature on the back of the box? (if at all!) Has the dominance of multiplayer titles and Battle Royale games made gaming AI redundant? Is it no longer deemed to be 'fun' to play against bots? Is 'smart' AI even desirable in games? Does it need to be kept deliberately dumb to allow the player to win in order to give a sense of 'fulfilment' and empowerment?

Is it now fully acceptable that AAA titles like Deathloop don't seem to invest anything in AI development - we should merely look the other away when npcs start running on the spot?

Is 'strong AI' merely cheating AI? Would really like to hear stories about games that you play (and continue to go back to ) that have clever AI that elevate the gaming experience? (or which game has the most despicable cheating / bad / dumbest AI?)

Paul the sparky

Have you played Cyberpunk?

Yossarian

From what I’ve read about the Halo: Infinite beta, it seems like bot AI has improved quite a lot recently, so, um, yeah.

https://kotaku.com/why-halo-infinite-s-bots-act-so-much-like-people-1847511140

Hodge360

I've definitely met real life people that jog on the spot when you're talking to them.

GurtTractor

I'm not sure I've played any game that has what I would describe as 'actually clever AI', meaning some kind of intelligence that continually adapts to player tactics, so you can't just take advantage of patterns and cheese your way to victory with enough time and experience in the game.

Like I can't think of a shooter where enemies won't just walk through a door, get shot, and fall onto the pile of their previously killed colleagues. There's a lot of opportunity now for devs to make use of machine learning techniques to have eerily competent AI in their games, in particular I'd love to see such a thing in a Total War game. GTA would be a great game to get some proper AI into too.

GurtTractor

AI Dungeon is a fascinating thing, and it generates surprisingly good dialogue at times, but after a while you see it's major weaknesses in the lack of a persistent and coherent internal world model, and in the way characters have limited to no sense of self outside of player input. There's a lot of promise with that stuff though I think, many games could implement the text generation to have pretty good procedural dialogue.

Dark Soldier

F.E.A.R AI is still an absolute triumph. The way they flanked and baited you.

Yossarian

GurtTractor wrote:

I'm not sure I've played any game that has what I would describe as 'actually clever AI', meaning some kind of intelligence that continually adapts to player tactics, so you can't just take advantage of patterns and cheese your way to victory with enough time and experience in the game.

Like I can't think of a shooter where enemies won't just walk through a door, get shot, and fall onto the pile of their previously killed colleagues. There's a lot of opportunity now for devs to make use of machine learning techniques to have eerily competent AI in their games, in particular I'd love to see such a thing in a Total War game. GTA would be a great game to get some proper AI into too.

Tricky thing to balance, mind. How do you ensure that the AI doesn’t become unbeatable over time?

GurtTractor

I think the 'best' AI so far is usually the most unpredictable. Like I need to play it again but Far Cry 2 had some interesting AI behaviour as I recall. I remember looking into a town watching the patrols waiting for a loop and a gap for me to sneak in, but it never came. Perhaps it was just a really long cycle but I think there was some actual proper self organisation going on. And they would often do surprising things when trying to find the player, taking long routes to sneak up on your flank. Them calling out to you and each other added to the illusion too, and important thing in games, Halo has some of that.

EvilRedEye

I believe Platinum tried to give Vanquish competent AI but it turned out too hard so they turned it into one of the higher difficulty levels.

GurtTractor

Yossarian wrote:

Tricky thing to balance, mind. How do you ensure that the AI doesn’t become unbeatable over time?

Well you can program the AI to forget too, or just have a limited capacity for holding potential player tactics in their mind. So it would be a bit like a cyclical arms race between you and the AI, certainly a lot more engaging in the long run than how it's being done right now. And of course if you kill that particular instance of AI there'll be others that won't necessarily have all the info.

Good AI that learns would make stealth/hitman type games that much more interesting I think. The ineptness does add to the comedy though, the way everyone just returns back to their patrols after you've gone on a killing spree is pretty silly.

Paul the sparky

Yeah, I was thinking about mentioning RDR2 for some of the behavior there as it's pretty convincing but still not proper AI, it's all programmed reactions

Funkstain

And that's the real point isn't it? None of what we see in games is actually AI, is it? It's just programmed routines, of varying complexity - flanking, call outs, retreating, swapping weapons, using environment - all programmed in by a non-artificial person.

Are there any examples of NPCs accessing machine learning algorithms and being able to adapt behaviour based on player behaviour? It's still not AI - the "adaptive behaviour" will still be pre-programmed routines - but it could allow for more personalised, more immersive routines

Yossarian

GurtTractor wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

Tricky thing to balance, mind. How do you ensure that the AI doesn’t become unbeatable over time?

Well you can program the AI to forget too, or just have a limited capacity for holding potential player tactics in their mind. So it would be a bit like a cyclical arms race between you and the AI, certainly a lot more engaging in the long run than how it's being done right now. And of course if you kill that particular instance of AI there'll be others that won't necessarily have all the info.

Good AI that learns would make stealth/hitman type games that much more interesting I think. The ineptness does add to the comedy though, the way everyone just returns back to their patrols after you've gone on a killing spree is pretty silly.

That could work, although I can still see moments where the AI manages to completely lock down a particular choke point causing some frustration.

mistercrayon

Funkstain wrote:

And that's the real point isn't it? None of what we see in games is actually AI, is it? It's just programmed routines, of varying complexity - flanking, call outs, retreating, swapping weapons, using environment - all programmed in by a non-artificial person.

Are there any examples of NPCs accessing machine learning algorithms and being able to adapt behaviour based on player behaviour? It's still not AI - the "adaptive behaviour" will still be pre-programmed routines - but it could allow for more personalised, more immersive routines

Drivatars?!

mk64

Best AI is in Mario Kart, those drivers are clever enough to overclock their engines and floor them when behind you

JMW

COD bots are good, they occasionally get stuck or predictably stay back when the gunfight loadout's sniper or whatever but overall they're pretty realistic.

acemuzzy

Glados is good

RamSteelwood

In games you really need artifical stupidity, not artificial intelligence.

Diluted Dante

RamSteelwood wrote:

In games you really need artifical stupidity, not artificial intelligence.

That's been in abundance whenever I've played online with people here.

davyK

If anything is hyped to the rafters it's AI. It is grand for tightly designed problems with big walls around them.

Blue Swirl

All these posts and no Derpy Alien gif? For shame.

Paul the sparky

Diluted Dante wrote:

RamSteelwood wrote:

In games you really need artifical stupidity, not artificial intelligence.

That's been in abundance whenever I've played online with people here.

You're thinking about that bed in the Nether situation aren't you?

poprock

mistercrayon wrote:

Drivatars?!

Driving games seem like an easy win for basic or faked AI. Driving is such a closed set of behaviours, a tight box for behaviour to be modelled in. The bots don’t need to do much to feel convincing.

dynamiteReady

Did anyone remember that Ferrari licensed game, perennially previewed in every other issue of Edge a decade or two ago? They had a cover story once. Didn't they have a working 'Drivetar' implementation they were boasting about? Years before Forza.

What was it? A genetic algorithm it was described as.

Wonder what happened to that team?
Can imagine them being absorbed by the Forza studio, or something.

Yossarian

The Ferrari game was Sega, wasn’t it? Yu Suzuki specifically.

The Drivatar thing will be a bit different, though, it’s supposed to create AI based on individual people’s behaviour in the game, my Drivatar should act differently to yours, although truth be told, I can’t see any difference.

davyK

Are you thinking about the F355 Challenge by sega?

That came out on Dreamcast and is next to impossible to win a race.

dynamiteReady

No, no. This was 3 Brits in a garage. Well... A house.
On some seemingly 'Infinite poly engine' shit. Vapourware in the end, but Edge was very generous to the team.

The game preview featured the Ferrari Modena, almost exclusively, and might have been a 360 project. I'll try to track it down, unless someone beats me to it.

F355 Challenge though. That game is still playable. Holds up well to Forza and GT for handling, but unfortunately only gives you one car.

dynamiteReady

Ecco qua:

https://www.unseen64.net/2013/03/09/ferrari-360-challenge-ps2-cancelled/

edit - What a fucking cool site this is - https://www.unseen64.net/beta-and-cancelled-videogames/

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