Misogyny and other gender issues. - The Bear and Badger

Mod74

Mouldywarp wrote:

I found Bayonetta quite interesting regarding this topic. She's the very epitome of sexist video game fantasy but then turned up to 11. I started to think of her as the female equivalent of Duke Nukem - a parody, basically.Â I'm not sure how most feminists would react to her though, probably not favourably.

I won't pretend to know what female gamers want, but from my male perspective I thought Bayonetta was one of the best female characters we've had in ages. Strong, sexy, maternal, sharp witted.

Then there's a pole dancing section after the titles and it all kinda goes down the shitter, but hey.

Facewon

General QFT for everything brooks has said in this thread.

Mouldywarp

@Mod74 I think the fact that she's wearing a tight leather (well, hair masquerading as leather) catsuit that disappears whenever she does a special move would rub some feminists up the wrong way. For me it was so OTT it became parody but I know some women who would argue that it still perpetrates objectification of women etc.

Brooks wrote:

I'm going to suggest no. Moreover, it's irrelevant. The species has made thousands of years of a point of saying "fuck you" to nature.

The idea of saying "fuck you" to nature in many circumstances is something I really agree with, in fact my entireÂ philosophyÂ on life centres around this concept. Trouble with humans is sometimes we override our nature for all the wrong reasons and other times we give into in inexplicably. The only issue I have with the whole gender thing is that sexuality is something so ingrained it can be very difficult to overcome. For example, men will always be turned on by provocative images of women regardless of their attitudes and therefore someone will use this fact to try and sell us things.

Tempy

Everyone just read How To Be a Woman

Rev

I wouldn't play bayonetta Â in front of my wife. It has taken some time to win her round with the likes of Little Big Planet, Singstar etc. I play Dark Souls when she is there- she keeps asking what the point is in trying to kill the dead people especially if they just come alive after I sit at the fire.Â
I agree Bayonetta is amazing to play, but the whole partially nudity doesn't add anything thing to the game. It kind of puts back the whole 'games have grown up' a bit. Â
At the same time she sees running around and shooting people pointless. She deals with victims of violence as part of her job, and therefore found the Pub Scene at the beginning of Unchartered 3 to be a bit much. Though she thought Journey was remarkable.
She says that they are games for little boys, and seeing how things aren't changing really, she is better leaving the room when i do decide to play.

[Deleted User]

Your wife sounds like a right cunt.

JonB

Mod74 wrote:

I won't pretend to know what female gamers want, but from my male perspective I thought Bayonetta was one of the best female characters we've had in ages. Strong, sexy, maternal, sharp witted. Then there's a pole dancing section after the titles and it all kinda goes down the shitter, but hey.

Let's not forget the unlockable costumes: cheerleader outfit, bikini etc.

Brooks

"A female Duke Nukem" is maybe the most accommodating reading I've come across.

Rev

XTC_NRG_4_DARKRAVER wrote:

Your wife sounds like a right cunt.

I think you need to watch your fucking mouth sunshine.

Kow

Also, some women are stupid.

[Deleted User]

I wouldn't have married someone so judgemental, frankly. Especially over something as pointless as video games. I mean, who gives a fuck what goes on. They're just a dumb passtime.

Roujin

Does your wife watch any form of reality TV Revel?

Little Franklin

revelthedog Â sounds like your wife has a problem with games beingÂ juvenileÂ rather than sexist, that's a whole other thread.

Should female characters be more realistic or should they instead be and empowering or positive role models. Or is the problem just over sexualisation, I kind of think if you take that out of the equation women come off about as well as men in most games.

Brooks

Then you get real curveballs like the Skullgirls cast, which were entirely designed by a female fetish cartoonist #WTFisfemalesexuality2012 #haveandeatyourcake

I guess we're supposed to correlate excessive jiggle with potency as opposed to an opportunity to get our genitals out for a wee rub but Authorial Intent remains bunk and if I didn't know a chick 'owns' that work (which makes this all actually totally okay or something), there'd be no real way of detecting that ownership simply by playing the game.

I mean I don't wanna chuck out "ironic sexism" here because nothing is so sincere as one's kinks, but

Bollockoff

revelthedog wrote:

She says that they are games for little boys,

I agree in all honesty. That's why I enjoy the majority of games so much. Because games for little boys are fucking fun. I still get a kick out of making laser gun noises when i'm bored.

djchump

Little Franklin wrote:

revelthedog Â sounds like your wife has a problem with games beingÂ juvenileÂ rather than sexist, that's a whole other thread.
...

Not really, the sexism is part of what makes/keeps them juvenile.

Rev

Roujin wrote:

Does your wife watch any form of reality TV Revel?

Yes she does. Â And she hasn't seen Bayonetta in action but I know that she wouldn't agree with it.Â Just from the point that it doesn't add anything to the game unless you are a 14 year old boy. The difference with games is the interactive element. In Bayonetta her outfit is disappearing because of some button I have pressed. I'm making the decision to attack/ kick / shoot / knife that person.Â she's fine with Dark Souls because of the Fantasy Element. She actually was surprised you could be a female character. Â I guess its partly because she deals with real victims of domestic abuse that she finds the glorifying of it to be quite frankly tasteless and in many ways pointless. She has always wondered why when the games industry have such a blank canvas of creativity, the next big thing is always about running around killing things.

XTC_NRG_4_DARKRAVER wrote:

I wouldn't have married someone so judgemental, frankly. Especially over something as pointless as video games. I mean, who gives a fuck what goes on. They're just a dumb passtime.

I'm happy that she has an opinion on it and that it is something she has tried to understand, especially since both my kids like playing games and she has tried to get involved. Â I don't want my gaming to be something that I have to sit in a separate room to do, or wait until she has gone to bed or has fallen asleep.

I don't appreciate what you said either. There was no need for it. By all means call me all the names under the sun, but don't disrespect my wife.

Tempy

We are missing the grander issue here, Brooks just hashtagged some shit

Diluted Dante

revelthedog wrote:

She actually was surprised you could be a female character.

She really doesn't know much about games does she?

Fentonizer

I just can't believe that we're not past kitchen and sandwich jokes.

I mean, what is that? That was maybe funny, like once?

The problem is that people don't do enough to call it out. If someone you knew kind of well, but not really, made an off the cuff racist remark, then fuck whatever subtext they may or may not have meant; it's just not on. I do think there is something to be said for close friends in private, knowing each other and what they mean and what their true opinions are, though. On the public stage though, no way.

When you dont' call it out, as we can see with misogyny, you have a whole mess of people making statements that may or may not be ironic/in jest, and it is impossible to tell the difference.

Some one might say something like, I dunno...

Your wife sounds like a right cunt.

And that, is a pretty terrible thing to say in my opinion. You can fall back on "Oh, it was a joke. I exaggerated my feelings for comedic effect." But if you read the long list of vile YouTube comments in the OP, then how the hell are you supposed to tell the difference between the shit munchers and the people who are being "edgy"?

Moreover, even if you concede it was a joke and it was hillarious, you're still paving the way for people in the future to make horrible comments about women because it's been established that these things are ok to say and these are valid opinions to have.

See also: Chris Rock - Black People Vs N*

Mouldywarp

I'm at a point where I don't like the idea of women having to have predefined roles but at the same time I really like looking at boobs. So equality is good and boobs are also good. Is thisÂ misogynistic?

djchump

Fentonizer wrote:

I just can't believe that we're not past kitchen and sandwich jokes. I mean, what is that? That was maybe funny, like once? The problem is that people don't do enough to call it out. ...

Errr... you kinda set that tone with your OP, so I'm going to call you out on this one.
You started off with a kitchen joke, now you're complaining about how we're not past kitchen and sandwich jokes. This means you're an idiot.

Bollockoff

Kitchen and sandwhich jokes are usually said with an ironic, knowing tone. At least in my group of friends and colleagues. Everyone knows it's outdated misogynist wankery and that's where the humour comes from. It's usually followed up anyway by man hating jokes since most women I know are fully aware of the score and give as good as they get.

Tempy

Yeah but I worry on that on the Internet a lot people actually mean it or at least believe in the ideas they represents

Fentonizer

djchump wrote:

Fentonizer wrote:

I just can't believe that we're not past kitchen and sandwich jokes. I mean, what is that? That was maybe funny, like once? The problem is that people don't do enough to call it out. ...

Errr... you kinda set that tone with your OP, so I'm going to call you out on this one.
You started off with a kitchen joke, now you're complaining about how we're not past kitchen and sandwich jokes. This means you're an idiot.

Fair enough. I would say that I really don't think I could have been any more clear in my satire, but I understand your point. It's either OK to joke about or it's not, and I have been hypocritical in this regard.

JonB

Mouldywarp

Nothing in this thread has been close to some of the bile in the comments section of those original links. I think jokes are just another form of communication, so long as the point being made is reasonable it can be done through irony or satire.

RamSteelwood

yeah, it's the problem when making a knowing, ironic joke on the internet, that if you shower it with winks and smilies it loses the effect, but if you don't then idiots will take it seriously.

of course, we would never have had this problem if women just kept their mouth shut and stayed in the kitchen where they belong...

Tempy

OK Chump, feel bad for calling Fenton an idiot now. UNLESS:

RamSteelwood wrote:

yeah, it's the problem when making a knowing, ironic joke on the internet, that if you shower it with winks and smilies it loses the effect, but if you don't then idiots will take it seriously.

Sasukekun

revelthedog wrote:

Roujin wrote:

Does your wife watch any form of reality TV Revel?

Yes she does. Â And she hasn't seen Bayonetta in action but I know that she wouldn't agree with it.Â Just from the point that it doesn't add anything to the game unless you are a 14 year old boy. The difference with games is the interactive element. In Bayonetta her outfit is disappearing because of some button I have pressed. I'm making the decision to attack/ kick / shoot / knife that person.Â she's fine with Dark Souls because of the Fantasy Element. She actually was surprised you could be a female character. Â I guess its partly because she deals with real victims of domestic abuse that she finds the glorifying of it to be quite frankly tasteless and in many ways pointless. She has always wondered why when the games industry have such a blank canvas of creativity, the next big thing is always about running around killing things.

XTC_NRG_4_DARKRAVER wrote:

I wouldn't have married someone so judgemental, frankly. Especially over something as pointless as video games. I mean, who gives a fuck what goes on. They're just a dumb passtime.

I'm happy that she has an opinion on it and that it is something she has tried to understand, especially since both my kids like playing games and she has tried to get involved. Â I don't want my gaming to be something that I have to sit in a separate room to do, or wait until she has gone to bed or has fallen asleep. I don't appreciate what you said either. There was no need for it. By all means call me all the names under the sun, but don't disrespect my wife.

In essence my wife is the same. Thinks games are for kids and not a valid form of entertainment for adults, but will happily watch 'Housewives of xxxx' or 'The Only way is Essex'.
She was however, intrigued by Heavy Rain and LA Noire, but she got bored watching pretty quickly and gave up on their stories after a while.

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