Mass Effect Universe (Spoilers) - The Bear and Badger

MattyJ

The ending was frustrating because nothing I did over the entire run of three games really mattered, come the end. It just wasn't satisfying at all. I know it is difficult to pull off something that would satisfy after all that time but I don't feel it was a good ending.

But then I wouldn't petition them to change it either, it's their game and their story.

ChattinWithChet

Please don't misunderstand my vitriol for the folks demanding a change with anyone who didn't like it. Whether the ending was good or not has absolutely no bearing on how dumb some folks think the artistic process should work. Through aggressive petitioning and whining!

monkey

Although I've been into this on the blurum, the problem I have with the ending isn't really the content or the plot. That is bad though.

The main problem is that the mechanics of the game break down. There's two games in Mass Effect - a gears clone and a dialogue / cut scene navigator. They broke the dialogue game quite badly from the beam up to the Citadel onwards. Choices, dialogue, consequences, all count for shit in the end. (I really don't believe that was the point they were trying to make either).Â

It's a bit like spending ages levelling up a character just to be stripped of it all for the final boss, and there's no way to beat him, and then the game ends. Â

It's reasonably unfair on Bioware because, although I was underwhelmed by my ending, I just assumed I'd got a bad one. It was only after looking at the 'different' endings on youtube that I realised quite how badly they'd ballsed the whole thing up. The choice in these games was always a smoke and mirrors thing anyway, but the whole thing fell apart. Â Â

That's essentially why I think it was so bad. That said, the Retake Mass Effect campaign et al can take a running jump. I bought a game, about 95% of it was brilliant. The 5% comprising the ending and the fetch quests was broken but hey ho, pretty good value.

EvilRedEye

ChattinWithChet wrote:

Please don't misunderstand my vitriol for the folks demanding a change with anyone who didn't like it. Whether the ending was good or not has absolutely no bearing on how dumb some folks think the artistic process should work. Through aggressive petitioning and whining!

Not sure what I think of that. I mean part of the problem with the end is that, whatever you think of it creatively, the execution of it is flawed. Failing to show that the destruction of the mass relays doesn't cause destructive shockwaves is pretty clumsy storytelling, especially when you're winding down an elaborate, detailed sci-fi universe. That single error in itself robbed the ending of emotional impact for some people. And in a similar vein, not even giving a glimmer of detail about what happens to the detailed sci-fi setting even when there are obvious outstanding issues like the big wodge of aliens floating around Earth is a bit odd. Saying 'we want a new ending' is perhaps a bit much, but I don't think a director's cut-style remix is particularly inappropriate. IMO, if ME3 was a film then the ending would have been edited for the home video release without a big hoo-ha about creative autonomy and such.

Little Franklin

I'd have been happy with just one good ending.

That colour coded explosion shit is fucking insulting.

ChattinWithChet

EvilRedEye wrote:

Please don't misunderstand my vitriol for the folks demanding a change with anyone who didn't like it. Whether the ending was good or not has absolutely no bearing on how dumb some folks think the artistic process should work. Through aggressive petitioning and whining!

Not sure what I think of that. I mean part of the problem with the end is that, whatever you think of it creatively, the execution of it is flawed. Failing to show that the destruction of the mass relays doesn't cause destructive shockwaves is pretty clumsy storytelling, especially when you're winding down an elaborate, detailed sci-fi universe. That single error in itself robbed the ending of emotional impact for some people. And in a similar vein, not even giving a glimmer of detail about what happens to the detailed sci-fi setting even when there are obvious outstanding issues like the big wodge of aliens floating around Earth is a bit odd. Saying 'we want a new ending' is perhaps a bit much, but I don't think a director's cut-style remix is particularly inappropriate. IMO, if ME3 was a film then the ending would have been edited for the home video release without a big hoo-ha about creative autonomy and such.

Demanding that someone sits down and creates something because you're upset is how you get good movies recut due to focus group reaction. It is the reverse situation of why something like Blade Runner got a happy ending! They want to start with the creators' intentions and work from there. That is absurd, misguided and gives weird power to further um movements like this. If the creators of this thing were happy with it, then that is the version I want to play, not the version that was carted out to appease strangely entitled goofballs who think everything has to go their way. I like it as it is, but even if I didn't, just as I don't want to see the studio executive cut of Once Upon a Time in America, I don't want want to experience the "closure" DLC. Whether it is a good ending or not, is apart from how odious a development the "Take Back ME3" is.

Little Franklin

EvilRedEye wrote:

And in a similar vein, not even giving a glimmer of detail about what happens to the detailed sci-fi setting even when there are obvious outstanding issues like the big wodge of aliens floating around Earth is a bit odd.

I don't think so, I like some things being left open ended.

EvilRedEye

There's surely a difference between wanting something re-cut for tone and wanting something re-cut for clarity though?

EDIT: Out o' the way, Franklin!

Roujin

Has anyone mentioned this yet?

Regardless of whether you realised it was happening or not during the closing stages, I think this goes some way to explaining how FUCKING AWESOME the end of ME3 actually was.

ChattinWithChet

@Evilredey: D epending on what it is though, the clarity of something can go right to the centre of what the thing is. If Broken Flowers, for instance, had a clear ending - IS THAT GUY HIS SON? - then the movie would be completely different. I don't think Mass Effect 3 is purely to do with bad cuts, or misleading cuts, there is a difference in philosophy here and I don't think the loudest voices in these instances should be given most weight.

Tempy

@Roujin It was until they said that was a happy accident and the real ending was just this:

ChattinWithChet

I can't read that. What does it say?

(The video is still a very cool way to think about it though. Lovely Sci-Fi noms )

Tempy

Err, essentially outlines the ending as it is, in very basic terms. Doesn't mention indoctrination. Also writer guy went on record to say 'no indoctrination'

ChattinWithChet

One of the things that I love this kind of Sci-Fi for is just how involved and awesome the things fans come up with. So much amazing stuff done for the Matrix that was way above how they were operating in the sequels.

EvilRedEye

ChattinWithChet wrote:

@Evilredey: D epending on what it is though, the clarity of something can go right to the centre of what the thing is. If Broken Flowers, for instance, had a clear ending - IS THAT GUY HIS SON? - then the movie would be completely different. I don't think Mass Effect 3 is purely to do with bad cuts, or misleading cuts, there is a difference in philosophy here and I don't think the loudest voices in these instances should be given most weight.

I'm not sure HAS SHEPARD COMMITTED GALACTIC GENOCIDE? is the same kind of thing though. It doesn't appear to be intentional, just a sloppy application of the lore of the setting that possibly occurred because the ending was created by the lead writers in isolation, without any peer review from the other creative staff.

ChattinWithChet

If he destroys the Reapers, he could also be committing genocide, though. Perhaps it is a little unclear as far as what impact his decision has, but I think the worth of life and what constitutes life is part of the end that is through the rest of the game.

Roujin

For me the ending make no sense if you take it at face value. It makes so little sense that I find it hard to believe that Bioware would opt for that ending over a huge final Reaper boss battle if they wanted to just play it dumb all of a sudden, at the end of their most profitable and popular IP.Â

There's just too much stuff like the starchild's voice being femshep and sheps voice split through the left and right channels, or the Illusive Man shooting Anderson only for Shepherd to aquire the exact same injury in the next scene where before there was none. Or even the Illusive Man and Anderson managing to beat Shepherd to the platform inside the crucible despite Shepherd clearly entering the beam ahead of Anderson and the Illusiive Man who just turns up at random.

Honestly, if it turns out that the ending was actually a literal series of events that made no sense at all, I will be amazed. They deliberately chose to end the game with a series of nonsensical dialogue options, followed by visions of space magic, and then a cut scene showing Shepherd take a breath? Despite the fact that prior to the ending they were able to take you on a fairly erudite journey across three games with some amazing set pieces.

[Deleted User]

None the less it could be the biggest marketing happy accident in gaming history.Â
The DLC new ending will be free but what's to stop them releasing paid for DLC alongside it.Â

On the same page, right there where you are downloading the new ending from, there is a tantalising new playable mission for 1200 space bucks. Now how many people who have hung onto the game for 6 months are going to refuse that?

I don't think they planned this, but boy could they make out of it.

Bollockoff

Everyone needs their regular dosage of The Prize. Maybe it'l mixup the constant chatter over the ending.

Tempy

Gonzo wrote:

Tempy wrote:

@Roujin It was until they said that was a happy accident and the real ending was just this:

temps, it's laughable to base your interpretation of the ending on a piece of paper someone says is where they came up with the ending.

The game speaks for itself.

I love the indoctrination ending, and maybe some often writers pushed that, but in interviews they've stated that was never their intention, I was just fielding that point. I'd be more than happy if it was true bit I think it is just the fans being smarter than the writers, sadly.

EvilRedEye

ChattinWithChet wrote:

If he destroys the Reapers, he could also be committing genocide, though. Perhaps it is a little unclear as far as what impact his decision has, but I think the worth of life and what constitutes life is part of the end that is through the rest of the game.

I'm talking about the mass relay explosions. It's well established that destroying a mass relay causes a huge shockwave that eradicates all life within (IIRC) a few lightyears. It's even reiterated in a codex entry that unlocks at the end of the game. In the ending, the mass relays all blow up, and you see the galaxy with shockwaves rippling across it. The reaction of a lot of people to the ending was 'Wuh-?' because they were left with the seemingly unintentional impression that they'd just killed all intelligent life in the galaxy.

[Deleted User]

I came to the conclusion that I had wiped out all intelligent life but was fine with it.

My interpretation at the time was that I had been heading towards my inevitable fate the entire trilogy. Ending the Reapers and all intelligent life go hand in hand as it is the only sure way to stop organics from being wiped out completely.

Non-intelligent life may live on as it cannot create synthetic life and thus destroy itself.

Essentially I started the next cycle, as the Reapers would have, but without them or anyway of replicating them.Â
Long and short of it, Organic life as a whole is now truly free, which is, in a way, the goal of the game.

I realise there are flaws in that interpretation however. Mainly that Joker is a awol faggot that royaly fucked it up.

Tempy

Gonzo wrote:

Tempy wrote:

Gonzo wrote:

Tempy wrote:

@Roujin It was until they said that was a happy accident and the real ending was just this:

temps, it's laughable to base your interpretation of the ending on a piece of paper someone says is where they came up with the ending. The game speaks for itself.

I love the indoctrination ending, and maybe some often writers pushed that, but in interviews they've stated that was never their intention, I was just fielding that point. I'd be more than happy if it was true bit I think it is just the fans being smarter than the writers, sadly.

temps, it's laughable to base your interpretation of the ending on words someone says after a shitstorm about the ending. The game speaks for itself.

I've waxed at length on Blurum about my thoughts on the ending, I'm not going to bang on here about it again, suffice to say whatever my interpretation is, the lead writer has made his case. That could be BS, but I am just making the point that he has said that. Nothing to do with my interpretation, I assure you.

Which isn't indoctrination based either, although you're asking me to recall a decision I came to about the end of a game, three months ago.

Final Hours was finished before the shit storm to, but that is utterly besides the point.

Bollockoff

The ending could have done with a massive scale Skies of Arcadia style ship boss fight.

[Deleted User]

Why is this still refered to as a napkin when its clearly lined paper? Indoctrinated bastards.

Tempy

Aye, I guess I came across as dismissing Rouj but I don't often veto what I type when I'm at work.

Again, just stating what was stated, for the record and all that.

Indoctrination works, and maybe some writers were vying for it. Didn't ME3 have a huge writers reshuffle?

Bollockoff

No homo.

Tempy

They certainly aren't, you are correct there.

Little Franklin

I can't subscribe to the indoctrination theory. Most of the "evidence" seems tenuous at best. If the ending doesn't make sense it's because it was rushed. Possibly they were going to include elements of indoctrination then changed their minds leaving bits in in the rush. It just seems like an incredibly reckless and stupid way for a big company to try and end such a high profile series.

Little Franklin

Like I said, it was rushed.

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