Current Affairs - The Bear and Badger

equinox_code

http://normanfinkelstein.com/2019/02/26/that-labour-antisemitism-crisis-in-numbers/

Yossarian

The issue is in the party and how it deals with antisemitism. Pointing at numbers of complaints against Labour members misses the point.

Yossarian

And just in case it gets lost in the page turn;

Yossarian wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

I still dont know what people actually want Labour to do.

The first and most important thing is to sort out the complaint handling process as it’s a complete mess and isn’t trusted. Get an independent Jewish body involved to be part of the arbitration process and ensure it’s free of influence from the rest of the party, increase transparency around how decisions are reached and chuck whatever resources at it are required to clear the backlog of cases.

People have been calling for action like the above for fucking ages now. The fact it still hasn’t been done despite being well within Labour’s power to do is a large part of the reason why it is felt that the Labour leadership doesn’t take antisemitism seriously.

Once that’s done, then is the time to start trying to find ways to rebuild trust.

equinox_code

The issue is manufactured

Yossarian

I disagree, but more than that, it doesn’t fucking matter what the cause is. It’s a real issue now that has caused a massive schism between a British minority group and a political party that was founded in part to stand up for minority groups.

Even if it is manufactured, it should be dealt with. It’s currently doing massive harm both to Labour and Jewish people in the U.K. Just try to fix it, FFS.

equinox_code

fixing an imagined problem should be pretty low down on our list of priorities.

Yossarian

Something like 83% of Jewish people would choose the Tories over Labour at the next election. There’s nothing imagined about that.

Facewon

So they need to make massive changes to their processes for something that's not that big by the numbers? Surely the numbers matter?

A couple of weeks ago that Watson dude was banging on about corbyn failing to look into everything personally, then the line is its a big deal the leadership asked to be cc'd on some of the emails.

Again, the deliberate conflation of AS with other things is a clear tactic and it's working.

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2019-03-09/would-railing-at-a-labour-saudi-lobby-be-racist/

"Anti-semitism has rapidly gone from meaning hatred or fear of Jews, to opposition to Israel, to antipathy to capitalism, as starkly illustrated by another “moderate” Labour MP, Siobhan McDonagh. As Jones notes, she recently told Radio 4:

It’s very much part of their [Corbyn supporters’] politics, of hard left politics, to be against capitalists and to see Jewish people as the financiers of capital. Ergo you are anti-Jewish people.

That line of argument has been emerging – unremarked – for some time from within parts of the Labour party, and it is proof in itself that many so-called “moderates” have been weaponising anti-semitism – not to protect Jews but to protect their class privilege."

So anti capitalist becomes anti jew which becomes nti semitism. That's handy.

Ffs.

Yossarian

I’m sorry but that’s bollocks. I have literally never seen that argument being deployed in relation to the U.K. left and I have been paying attention to this.

Talking about shadowy Jewish financiers funding the world is certainly an antisemitic trope. Sadly, some people when criticising capitalism do fall into using that trope, those people get called out on it as well they should.

Anticpitalists are not considered antisemitic by default.

Facewon

equinox_code wrote:

http://normanfinkelstein.com/2019/02/26/that-labour-antisemitism-crisis-in-numbers/

Yossarian wrote:

The issue is in the party and how it deals with antisemitism. Pointing at numbers of complaints against Labour members misses the point.

Not when it also points out how they were handled and how quickly.

RedDave2

Facewon wrote:

equinox_code wrote:

http://normanfinkelstein.com/2019/02/26/that-labour-antisemitism-crisis-in-numbers/

Yossarian wrote:

The issue is in the party and how it deals with antisemitism. Pointing at numbers of complaints against Labour members misses the point.

Not when it also points out how they were handled and how quickly.

I think yoss is arguing more that Jewish people don't thrust the complaints process that's in place so that's why the numbers aren't the issue.

Facewon

She literally just deployed it, right there in that quote. The highlightwd bit is the mps words.

Yossarian

OTOH, according to the Segalov piece I linked to before:

But there’s a backlog of the most serious cases now waiting to be considered by the NCC – which is unacceptable – and a lack of transparency that is made worse by mistrust around this issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/21/labour-antisemitism-overhaul-policy-discipline-public

Yossarian

Facewon wrote:

She literally just deployed it, right there in that quote. The highlightwd bit is the mps words.

I read that as saying that if you are anti capitalist and you believe that Jews are financiers of capital then you are likely to be antisemitic rather than stating that anticapitalism is automatically antisemitic. The only way for that to mean that anticapitalism is antisemitism is it it’s true that Jewish people are the financiers of capital.

equinox_code

Yossarian wrote:

Something like 83% of Jewish people would choose the Tories over Labour at the next election. There’s nothing imagined about that.

And why is that? When the Tories are demonstrably and considerably more antisemitic than Labour, what does that prove?

It proves that this isn't about antisemitism. It proves this is about discrediting Corbyn and stifling legit criticism of Israel.

Yossarian

It doesn’t prove any such thing. It could just as easily be taken as proof that Jewish people have lost faith in Labour to take antisemitism seriously. Perhaps members of the Tory party are more likely to be antisemitic, but if those individuals are dealt with then it’s less of an issue.

Yossarian

Also, this kind of conspiracy-minded thinking is very much part of the problem.

Jewish people in Britain have been raising concerns for years now. Dismissing these with ‘because Israel’ simply plays into the criticisms that are being made.

equinox_code

Is Yossing a word yet?

GooberTheHat

Labour clearly do have an issue. Regardless of whether they do have an anti semitism problem, or if they are worse at dealing with anti semitism than other parties, they are clearly perceived by a significant number of Jews of bei g guilty of both.

Whether that's fair or not is irrelevant, it is an issue they need to deal with.

hylian_elf

equinox_code wrote:

Is Yossing a word yet?

Has been for some time, but he really objects to it. For a very good reason, I understand, so we shouldn’t use it.

Facewon

hylian_elf wrote:

equinox_code wrote:

Is Yossing a word yet?

Has been for some time, but he really objects to it. For a very good reason, I understand, so we shouldn’t use it.

Quite.

SpaceGazelle

I wonder what proportion of British Jews are Zionist land grab approvers? I bet it's quite high, not that it's got much to do with anything really. I had to have a word with myself in my early 20's to stop tarring everyone with the same brush and thankfully it's gone away.

equinox_code

hylian_elf wrote:

equinox_code wrote:

Is Yossing a word yet?

Has been for some time, but he really objects to it. For a very good reason, I understand, so we shouldn’t use it.

In which case I apologize. I only read it once previously

RedDave2

SpaceGazelle wrote:

I wonder what proportion of British Jews are Zionist land grab approvers? I bet it's quite high, not that it's got much to do with anything really. I had to have a word with myself in my early 20's to stop tarring everyone with the same brush and thankfully it's gone away.

Is it fair to say that while someone can be completely against Israels actions , it doesnt mean they oppose Jewish People in the same way many are against the actions (both legal and illegal) of the Roman Catholic church and the Vatican but it doesnt mean they have anything against Catholics?

Diluted Dante

It's not only fair its patently obvious.

Roujin

Agree with Dante, it's obvious.

I think a lot of this antisemitic accusation business being sent Labour's way will most likely be statements to the effect of "Fuck Isreal" in reference to some bullshit that the Israeli government did, and little fuckers are just getting away with chucking that in as an example of antisemitism, because taken on it's own it is, but anyone with half a brain when they looked at the comment would see it was being made in reference to opposition for Irsaeli governmental actions, not Israel itself.

It's especially telling that there are lots of articles that just say ANTISEMITISM IS OUT OF CONTROL IN LABOUR, THE HARD LEFT ARE INHERENTLY ANTISEMITIC, WOULDNT IT BE GREAT IF TONY BLAIR CAME BACK LADS THOSE WERE THE DAYS without actually providing any examples of this antisemitic tide of hate.

Meanwhile Chukka thinks we should bring back national service but not really national service so kids from all backgrounds can mix together and this will somehow help narrow the class divide. Ahahahaha.

Diluted Dante

It would certainty help stem the appalling abuse suffered by people with a funny tinge.

Yossarian

Yossarian wrote:

The issue is in the party and how it deals with antisemitism. Pointing at numbers of complaints against Labour members misses the point.

Which isn’t to say that there aren’t people using it for their own political ends, ofc.

Brooks

There aren’t enough Jews in the UK to matter electorally. Non issue, press noise. Labour could afford to ignore it entirely but for the shitshow media, which is completely unsolvable without a total erasure of the cunts that run it.

Brooks

To reiterate: the last time antisemitism was in any way part of the popular imagination was that punchline in the Mr Creosote sketch.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories