g.man wrote:

A long time ago when G was in Primary School, we were made to recite the Lord's Prayer every morning at the start of class for the seven years we were there. This had zero effect on anyone I knew and by the time we graduated to Secondary School, a more Godless bunch of reprobates you couldn't hope to find.

Well yeah, me too, although I changed the words more often than not.  The point isn't "reciting the pledge of allegiance/ learning the lord's prayer/ memorising the Quran/whatever" makes you suddenly completely believe in that thing.  But it does normalise it, and reasserts the dominance of whatever set of values and beliefs underpin it.

The pledge of allegiance was specifically designed to promote the idea of American Nationalism (arguably in response to concerns about immigration), and whether it's due to the pledge or other cultural factors (or both), nationalism certainly appears to be a defining characteristic of the America of today.  The addition of "under God" in the 50's had the handy dual effect of both pushing back against the perceived threat of atheist commies, and asserting that the American Way was God's Way and accordingly blessed.  Again, I'd argue that this conflation of God with capitalism is very much a peculiarly American viewpoint, and that whilst only an idiot would argue that The Pledge is solely responsible, I suspect it played its part.

Similarly the constant reciting of the Lord's prayer, the requirement for religious worship that is at least "51% Christian" in UK schools and so on, again whilst not necessarily converting anyone, does establish certain cultural norms and expectations, which work to the advantage of those who promoted their use in the first place.  Those norms arguably play into the base level intolerance we have for people who are "different" in our society. (They also create huge conflicts for people who have to wrestle with two "normals".  For instance being told to memorise the Quran at home, and the Lord's Prayer at school...)

Stuff like this isn't a problem for us, because it's part of who we are, even if we've chosen to dismiss it.  But for others it certainly can be.

I was at a heavily Catholic funeral on Saturday and was struck by how a large group of people know all the beats. The priest says something and the crowd say something back, en masse. They know when to say their bit. They know what to chant. It’s a bizarre thing to see when you’re not used to it.

I went to a Catholic School too, and was bullied vociferously but my parents made me go to church until I was in college. It may have not made me catholic, but it certainly inflicted a lot of trauma over injustice and the contradiction between what we were taught and how kids actually acted. I can see the pledge of allegiance doing the same in some cases, especially with black students, hispanic students, and so on. Liberty and justice for all, eh.

regmcfly wrote:

tin_robot wrote:

djchump wrote:

Do they do it in all the schools in the morning as well? Or is that just a movie thing? Cos if they do, that comes across as very Hitler Youth to me.

I don't think they all sing the anthem, but I think I'm right in saying that the vast majority of US states require that school children regularly pledge allegiance to the flag.  Brain washing is fun.

When I was at school in America every morning at school in registration the class stood and pledged allegiance to the flag. I still know it off by heart I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS ONE NATION UNDER GOD UNDIVIDED WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL Being at a Catholic school some wags would often say amen at the end I just stood and looked at the flag with my mouth shut for 20 seconds.

Isn't it "Indivisible"?

regmcfly wrote:

Son it's pretty much mass there so I could rock it with the fans and sing all the words

poprock wrote:

It’s a bizarre thing to see when you’re not used to it.

At a gig you only go to when someone you know dies.

poprock wrote:

At a gig you only go to when someone you know dies.

Bauhaus

Trump’s speech at the UN General Assembly is not going well.

His usual bluster is being met with indifference and actual out-loud laughter from the other nations’ heads of state.

“In less than two years my administration has achieved more than any other US administration has in history.”

Reaction from audience: “laughter”

Neither do the UN.

I, a known liar, am going to tell you a lie, but while I'm telling it, I'm also going to tell you it's true, which is also a lie, and as we all know, two lies make a truth.

Real truthy. Much truthiness.

There are tools that you can use to clean up online profiles, certainly with Twitter, there may well be a Facebook equivalent.

Yossarian wrote:

There are tools that you can use to clean up online profiles, certainly with Twitter, there may well be a Facebook equivalent.

Noted. Thanks.

For what it’s worth I think the years of doing religious assembly at school 2/3 days a week has had a permanent effect on me.

Despite being ostensibly secular in my outlook I still reach for God for explanations of unfathomable phenomena (e.g. if game has a copy of bravely default today, God wants me to buy it). It’s a little bit silly but it’s an interesting (to me) hang up. I don’t think i could ever go full Jed Bartlett and start calling god a feckless thug, maybe in part because everything is so embedded but also there’s a bit of Pascal’s wager in there too.

Stopharage wrote:

I'm taking 30 students to New York in February. I'm becoming increasingly concerned that I may be blocked from entering the country after a fair few of the critical things I've posted about Trump online. There has been talk of Homeland Security scrutinising the online profiles of those who get ETSAs/VISAs. Of more immediate concern today is the group of students who've asked if they can do a dirty protest at Trump Tower. Now, whilst this might sound like youthful bravado it is, in part, influenced by the precedent set a few years back. 

On the Sunday preceding the 2010 General Election, the Conservative candidate for the constituency in which I taught (Sutton) was the front page story on the Observer. Why? Well, the rather delightful Philippa Stroud was revealed to have founded a church that attempted to cure gay people of their demonic affliction. Her home address was commonly available and so on the day preceding the Election Day, two female students of mine threw their own shit at her front door and set fire to a paper bag of their own faeces on her door step. It was with a certain sense of revulsion, shock and pride that I later found this out at their Year 13 prom. My current politics lot have found out about this and feel they should be able to replicate the process at Trump Tower. I've had to inform them that it is a tad more guarded than Stroud's gaff. Plus, it's obviously very naughty behaviour.

That is amazing - you must be very proud.

Anyway - the ESTA/VISA thing. I had the same concerns last year when I visited California. No one batted an eyelid at any stage of my application for entering the country or when I got there going through immigration. I think the truth of it is that there’s more bark than bite to this - and being a white European male I wasn’t exactly in their target demographic for scrutiny. It is a worry though - but I think that’s the real purpose of their approach, to make people worry and attempt to indirectly influence what you do and say online.