Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers - The Bear and Badger

nick_md

Disappointing lack of full Eurotrash episodes on YouTube, I'm finding out.

nick_md

Zut alors.

nick_md

Found a playlist, I'm sorted.

nick_md

They need to show this every night at 12pm+ like they do those chat lines, I swear it's a similar demographic. Eurotrash is funnier ofc.

Escape

Diluted Dante wrote:

You're in Cornwall right Escape? An area that benifited from a ton of EU funding that the UK govt now won't replicate despite promising to. You imply that the EU admitted Bulgaria and Romania to exploit their workers, but the fact is that restrictions were allowed to be placed on this for a number of years, and the UK just... didnt. This made it one of the few countries not to.

Somerset. The EU's site used to make it very clear they oppose being utilised for wealth redistribution, but it seems harder to find that statement now.

When it comes to what the EU have done locally, I think the real question is ‘Who have they helped?’. The businesses I know that received grants are all owned by the wealthy (job creation versus below-living-wage arguments there), and I recognise the defence that it isn't the EU's fault we exploit Romanians, but when they're willing to accept low-GDP members without any socialist policies in place for them, they're washing their hands of caretaking responsibility in favour of extractable value. Romania have urgently needed additional help with their national health service for ages and the EU have refused, for example.

The economic argument's entirely separate for the UK, but as a socialist I ask everyone to respect my right to a critical view of the EU's stance towards reducing inequality (or just not, as the case officially is). Again, that's not their job. But why not? As a union, why couldn't and shouldn't it be? The class divide's a lot smaller in some EU countries, and of course the poorest have no voice beyond shooting themselves in the feet like we have.

I feel lots of remainers are guilty of calling leavers ignorant (many of those who voted to increase the Tories' autonomy were played, sure), while themselves regarding the EU very simply as The Union for Friends of Europeans. Remain has most of the best celebs and the lion's share of collective intelligence, so that'll do, pig.

If I were better-off there's every chance I'd have voted remain (rather than not voting), but it's because of my life situation that I believe the EU aligns and cooperates more closely with rightwing mechanisms (at least in my estimation from researching the things that concern me) than leftwing ones.

The EU's not a progressive movement seeking to help the poorest in European society, rather it runs on business principles that look good inasmuch as Keith looks good in comparison to Bohnson. When the news about migrant workers came in, I saw heaps of ‘C'mon, boomer, let's see you out on the fields!’, instead of ‘Hang on, so we've been exploiting these migrant workers until now, and we're okay with the EU evidently turning a blind eye?’.

Sorry for interrupting the sex arses. Not surprised Sport writers are better than Graunbos at this point.

acemuzzy

I don't think anyone was saying the EU was perfect. I think we largely reckon an non-EU UK government would be worse, for nearly everybody, not helped by a worsened economy. That's the delta that's relevant here, isn't it? I'm unclear what you think will actually get better... I guess more wealth distribution at the point a socialist party next win power? But would the EU really have materially halted their efforts? I mean maybe, but we're about five ifs deep before we've found a conceivably branch that's advantageous so fuck that noise basically.

Brooks

Any socialist movement that actually has the chops to gain thrones and execute important ~~people~~ policies in 202X is probably going to have to be a transnational one anyway, since most of the problems are well beyond any single nation state. Hopefully Brexit doesn't meaningfully derail any such efforts.

Escape

acemuzzy wrote:

I think we largely reckon an non-EU UK government would be worse, for nearly everybody, not helped by a worsened economy. That's the delta that's relevant here, isn't it?

I agree we were better off as a member under the Tories, and financially better off under any government in the medium term, but just as I couldn't bring myself to vote for a centrist party over a far-right one, I couldn't endorse them as an independent concern. Others with similar feelings could, and that's the same chat we've had about Labour loads of times in recent years; inviting the Overton into play, etc.

The binary ref was a deliberate way of isolating people like me from the conversation, creating opposing teams and encouraging everyone who partook to join one. Class warfare as if expertly dealt in a deck-builder by a rightwinger. There should've been an ongoing discussion over reform proposals in great detail, alongside the genuine disadvantages of membership and how willing the EU were to compromise. Packaged like folded code in an IDE, condensed to the gist for most people to understand.

With the way we acted and the EU not wanting to lose Italy or anyone else, of course we were gonna struggle for a non-shit deal. Having Corbyn's Labour in power would've helped a bit, but ideally I think the ref should've happened at whatever point in future we've fair-minded public presenters of the case for and against. I reckon the BBC'd have to go first.

I'm unclear what you think will actually get better... I guess more wealth distribution at the point a socialist party next win power?

Nothing gets better under the Tories, and there wouldn't be too many hurdles for internal wealth redist under a socialist government. But as Brooks is getting at, I just really wish the EU could be pressured into becoming a guiding light for helping the poorest in their realm.

That was never happening when so many treat the EU as if it's already benevolent, versus a grand old bunch of idiots who got the crazy idea it was laughing at them. If socialism continues to be best served by devolution in so many cases, at what cost...

Diluted Dante

There was a binary referendum because Cameron didn't think he'd lose it.

Roujin

Escape wrote:

If I were better-off there's every chance I'd have voted remain (rather than not voting)

Damn bro, wtf. Just not gonna vote in the most important referendum in a generation and then type out essays on the problems you have with both sides years later?

mistercrayon

For someone who won an election Cameron really had no idea about the mood of the country. He’s such a fucking thick fuck and I fucking hate all these inherited rich pricks.

Like, Bezos is a prick, but at least he got there under his own steam (and as much as we hate it, implicitly with our blessing). But a Bezos jr jesus imagine just landing into the planet thinking playing the World is easy and then given all the levers to it for Christmas.

Escape

Diluted Dante wrote:

There was a binary referendum because Cameron didn't think he'd lose it.

If he'd had more about him we'd be calling him a rightwing mastermind. Brexit was a massive win for him, else Corbyn would've won power and shown him up for the next decade. Gideon shut up for a while, at least.

Roujin wrote:

Damn bro, wtf. Just not gonna vote in the most important referendum in a generation and then type out essays on the problems you have with both sides years later?

By GE24 we'll be even more fucked, making that another really important vote, but I still ain't backing Keith.

mistercrayon wrote:

But a Bezos jr jesus

He's not the Messiah.

LivDiv

Smells like 2017 in here.

Diluted Dante

Escape wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

There was a binary referendum because Cameron didn't think he'd lose it.

If he'd had more about him we'd be calling him a rightwing mastermind. Brexit was a massive win for him, else Corbyn would've won power and shown him up over the next decade.

I'm sure it felt like a massive win when he resigned in disgrace.

RamSteelwood

mistercrayon wrote:

For someone who won an election Cameron really had no idea about the mood of the country. He’s such a fucking thick fuck and I fucking hate all these inherited rich pricks.

Like, Bezos is a prick, but at least he got there under his own steam (and as much as we hate it, implicitly with our blessing). But a Bezos jr jesus imagine just landing into the planet thinking playing the World is easy and then given all the levers to it for Christmas.

And the steam of his rich parents giving him 300K to start his business...

Roujin

Escape wrote:

Roujin wrote:

Damn bro, wtf. Just not gonna vote in the most important referendum in a generation and then type out essays on the problems you have with both sides years later?

By GE24 we'll be even more fucked, making that another really important vote, but I still ain't backing Keith.

I feel like you're being incredibly blinkered here mate if I'm being honest. People like you (assuming you mean socialists who don't like the EU or the current UK political landscape) weren't excluded from the referendum by it being binary, you could have either voted for the lesser of two evils to minimise the immediate harm done or spoiled your ballot if you weren't interested in trying to stop the worst case option or maintaining the status quo.

No one is asking you to back Starmer, but if I have to vote for him in 2024 to stop another bunch of Torys getting in because we don't have anything other than a first past the post system then I'll have to vote for him and then pressure the fuck out of my MP to campaign for voting reform.

mistercrayon

RamSteelwood wrote:

mistercrayon wrote:

For someone who won an election Cameron really had no idea about the mood of the country. He’s such a fucking thick fuck and I fucking hate all these inherited rich pricks.

Like, Bezos is a prick, but at least he got there under his own steam (and as much as we hate it, implicitly with our blessing). But a Bezos jr jesus imagine just landing into the planet thinking playing the World is easy and then given all the levers to it for Christmas.

And the steam of his rich parents giving him 300K to start his business...

Even if he got a leg up the turn around on 300k to a trillion is unfathomable.

Escape

mistercrayon wrote:

I'm sure it felt like a massive win when he resigned in disgrace.

He resigned to enjoy his pimp shed with a move that ensured Thatcherism's victory over a socialist reversal, and thus avoided a highly critical revision to his place in political history. He doesn't get to enjoy that personally, no, but he'd have gone down as a brand failure otherwise. The Last Etonian.

Roujin

mistercrayon wrote:

Even if he got a leg up the turn around on 300k to a trillion is unfathomable.

Well he agressively avoids paying tax in every country he operates in and has some of the worst employment conditions in the developed world exploiting his workforce to maximum effect which is also a good way to make a lot of money.

I won't argue that amazon branching out from being an online book seller to a giant online megastore at just the right moment in time wasn't a fucking smart idea, but he's really not done the bulk of the work in earning his money, that's been done by his employees.

His employees which if he paid them all $100,000 right now in a one off payment, he would be left with as much money as he had at the start of the pandemic last year.

mistercrayon

Roujin wrote:

Escape wrote:

Roujin wrote:

Damn bro, wtf. Just not gonna vote in the most important referendum in a generation and then type out essays on the problems you have with both sides years later?

By GE24 we'll be even more fucked, making that another really important vote, but I still ain't backing Keith.

I feel like you're being incredibly blinkered here mate if I'm being honest. People like you (assuming you mean socialists who don't like the EU or the current UK political landscape) weren't excluded from the referendum by it being binary, you could have either voted for the lesser of two evils to minimise the immediate harm done or spoiled your ballot if you weren't interested in trying to stop the worst case option or maintaining the status quo.

No one is asking you to back Starmer, but if I have to vote for him in 2024 to stop another bunch of Torys getting in because we don't have anything other than a first past the post system then I'll have to vote for him and then pressure the fuck out of my MP to campaign for voting reform.

Why distinguish between not voting and spoiling. Nobody talks about the 0.0001% vote leave and remain or whatever when they wheel out the 52/48.

Also I think you’re being a little bit naive about “pressure”. Once whoever is in the top seat they do what they fucking want. Embarrassment has basically zero currency in politics today. And even if it is a currency it’ll be performed by the people who actually need to be more radical (if the rightists don’t care about it anymore the leftists shouldn’t be hampered by it just to stay neutral)

Escape

And I'm in a Tory stronghold, and knew we'd vote to leave the EU. Whenever I've voted it's been to add my number towards the PR push, so under these conditions I've no impetus to vote for the lesser of evils.

Roujin

mistercrayon wrote:

Roujin wrote:

Escape wrote:

Roujin wrote:

Damn bro, wtf. Just not gonna vote in the most important referendum in a generation and then type out essays on the problems you have with both sides years later?

By GE24 we'll be even more fucked, making that another really important vote, but I still ain't backing Keith.

I feel like you're being incredibly blinkered here mate if I'm being honest. People like you (assuming you mean socialists who don't like the EU or the current UK political landscape) weren't excluded from the referendum by it being binary, you could have either voted for the lesser of two evils to minimise the immediate harm done or spoiled your ballot if you weren't interested in trying to stop the worst case option or maintaining the status quo. No one is asking you to back Starmer, but if I have to vote for him in 2024 to stop another bunch of Torys getting in because we don't have anything other than a first past the post system then I'll have to vote for him and then pressure the fuck out of my MP to campaign for voting reform.

Why distinguish between not voting and spoiling. Nobody talks about the 0.0001% vote leave and remain or whatever when they wheel out the 52/48. Also I think you’re being a little bit naive about “pressure”. Once whoever is in the top seat they do what they fucking want. Embarrassment has basically zero currency in politics today. And even if it is a currency it’ll be performed by the people who actually need to be more radical (if the rightists don’t care about it anymore the leftists shouldn’t be hampered by it just to stay neutral)

Spoiled ballots are counted, you participated in the democratic process. Not voting at all, especially when the final result was so close, seems insane to me, like actual die hard dribbling bulldog spirit morons voted in this referendum, the sort of people who never vote normally turned out to vote, people couldn't even be bothered to try and either stop these idiots from damaging the country more than it already was? They don't get to compain now, all the brexit voters who were promised a load of old shite have more right to complain about the events of the past 4 years than Escape does, at this point. I know that sounds harsh, but I don't understand how people didn't realise that even if they don't like the choice offered, if one choice is demonstrably worse for people than maintaining the status quo then you need to get out there and vote to at least stop things from getting worse!!!

The bit about pressuring my MP for voting reform was very facetious. It won't happen, we had a vote on it, again, the majority voted to keep fptp so here we are. All I can do to stop the torys in 2024 is vote labour at this point, even if means we get Starmer, he's still way more preferable than whatever loathesome cunt the conservatives haul in front of the voters, probably Priti Patel. The issue is that the left unfortunately has two hurdles to overcome in this country, maybe three, they need the public to come around to thinking that more left leaning policies are something they want, they need to also somehow get a left leaning candidate at the front of the pack and they also need some sort of proportional representation in place so that the split in the left vote between labour, greens, etc. doesn't negatively impact their representation in parliament. In the meantime though, people on the left, imo should at least vote to stop further damage being done to the country, even if that means holding your nose and voting starmer in to stop another tory government.

Roujin

Escape wrote:

And I'm in a Tory stronghold, and knew we'd vote to leave the EU. Whenever I've voted it's simply to add my number towards the PR push, so I've no impetus to vote unless I support policies.

What a selfish viewpoint dude, it was a national vote, not a local vote so voting intent of your area didn't matter to the overall result. Why would you only vote for something if you support the policies? Why wouldn't you vote for something that didn't align with your preferences if it meant that it would prevent a greater harm being done?

Escape

I mean I bet on the national vote being leave, and didn't feel compelled to support a system I feel forgotten to, same as I never voted for Blair. I even wondered if Hague would've been any worse.

Roujin wrote:

they need the public to come around to thinking that more left leaning policies are something they want, they need to also somehow get a left leaning candidate at the front of the pack and they also need some sort of proportional representation in place so that the split in the left vote between labour, greens, etc. doesn't negatively impact their representation in parliament.

We did somehow get a leftwing leader in Corbyn, and loads of people did come around to a swathe of leftwing policies in 2017. But like PR, the Tories and our media went to town on it all.

If Starmer's the best we can hope for, sure, go ahead. I'm not against that. But if he is our best then I'll try and disengage from following this depressing society for rich lads.

Brooks

Disengaging from mainstream Politics narrative is absolutely the most sane thing to do at this point, it's a fairly obvious right-off for the forseeable. If you have the energy, make it local/off-the-grid and deeply unsexy but necessary.

Roujin

By all means disengage, just don't complain about the people running the show if you're not going to exercise the bare minimum activity a democratic society asks of you which is to participate in the process.

Minnesänger

Roujin wrote:

By all means disengage, just don't complain about the people running the show if you're not going to exercise the bare minimum activity a democratic society asks of you which is to participate in the process.

I get the point, but feel it’s a bit unfair. There’s a lot of people who feel unrepresented and, frankly, exhausted. There comes a point when disengaging for a while is less about apathy and more about sanity. They can still complain.

The point about keeping it local is a good one. The government right now don’t give a shit about you. They’re not going to help. And looking at the numbers (and the opposition) hoping for otherwise is a fools errand. So stay aware to the point at which it doesn’t impact your happiness, and focus your energies on the areas around you.

Minnesänger

If you are still fully engaged nationally, good on you. But if you’re gonna judge others for opting out for a bit, then get tae.

Tempy

I slightly disagree because apathy is harmful to others. Not everything can be about the self. Brexit was clearly going to be a disaster for young people, feeling unrepresented and exhausted is fine, but for an event so obviously deleterious to so many as Brexit, I feel like you need to engage and be empathetic to the futures of others. Perhaps I’m being unfair. I don’t really care though, it’s a calamitous thing and to have sat out for any reason seems churlish to me.

Roujin

Yeah just to be clear here, by all means if the debate around anything is stressing you out, you absolutely can disengage with it.

To pull a "Well my vote wouldn't have counted anyway and I knew it would be a leave result, so I didn't bother voting" and then proceed to deliver your reckons about brexit being a shambles and not feeling represented in the vote, that isn't gonna fly with me, even if it's me ol' mucker Escape doing it.

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