Red Dead Redemption 2 - The Bear and Badger

Nina

Paul the sparky wrote:

It's a weird one, because I've always thought Rockstar had a "Ready when it's ready" approach to their games, I thought the success of stuff like GTA bought them time. LA Noire had some shitty stories coming out but I can't remember what that was all about.

There's a story about cake and LA Noire in this Twitter thread.
Funny how one of the replies mentioned it was even worse before Rockstar started working with that studio.

Also don't think there's any studio that can really do a "ready when it's ready" approach, at some point you need to make money. I vaguely remember Horizon getting pushed back to February, which was a pretty big deal then. That was definitely the furthest it could have been pushed back, as after that a new fiscal year would start and for some reason unknown to me it couldn't be released in the new year.

Bob

I guess no one is wearing Nike trainers then cos Fuck me I doubt rockstar are running a sweat shop for 2p an hour

Paul the sparky

Nina wrote:

Paul the sparky wrote:

It's a weird one, because I've always thought Rockstar had a "Ready when it's ready" approach to their games, I thought the success of stuff like GTA bought them time. LA Noire had some shitty stories coming out but I can't remember what that was all about.

There's a story about cake and LA Noire in this Twitter thread.
Funny how one of the replies mentioned it was even worse before Rockstar started working with that studio.

Also don't think there's any studio that can really do a "ready when it's ready" approach, at some point you need to make money. I vaguely remember Horizon getting pushed back to February, which was a pretty big deal then. That was definitely the furthest it could have been pushed back, as after that a new fiscal year would start and for some reason unknown to me it couldn't be released in the new year.

If Rockstar can't, after the sales of GTAV, it's incredibly long tail (still charts on some weeks. Who the fuck is buying it now?) and its healthy micro transaction revenue, then no one can. Scary stuff.

equinox_code

Full respect to reg for making a stand.

I've never worked 100 hours, but I have done quite a few 80 hour weeks. I was obliged to on account of everyone else doing it. It really took a toll, and was partly responsible for the break down of my relationship. These days I refuse to work more than 50, and even that stresses me out. I can say with certainty that making this stand has cost me a promotion.

I do try to be an ethical consumer where ever it isn't a massive inconvenience. However, if I had a new console I would absolutely make an exception to buy this game.

nick_md

FWIW, it was on a passion project many years ago, which I wasn't forced to do, and that I am extremely proud of. I certainly don't think it's good to work those hours, and I didn't work anything like that length before, and haven't after. I was pretty much happy to at the time though, and no one forced me or others doing it to do so (I had no family or outside commitments).

Myself and a small number of colleagues put the hours in because we believed in what we were making, were proud of it, and wanted it to succeed and be the best it could be. I imagine many creative endeavours are the same.

I didn't mean to be quite as argumentative as I was back there tho, so apologies. I was just irked by the assumption that someone knew why I put a shift in back then better than I do, that I was somehow influenced by an outside force. Maybe I got that wrong.

No one should be forced or coerced into working hard and beyond the call of duty on something. I'd be lying though if I said I'm not extremely proud of what I and my colleagues achieved.

Nina

@Paul, maybe Rockstar can, I can't say for sure. It's just that I've seen that a release date is often chosen at a date that makes the most sense money wise. "if we release it now, all profits will fall into the next fiscal year and that could be good /bad for investors and whatever" kinda reasons. I don't know anything about economics, this is just what I've been told.
Also Rockstar has quite a lot of expenses I'd guess, and their offices aren't in the cheapest places of the world.
I think the worst part of the statement is where he's proud there are hundreds of versions for a trailer. That reads like a lot of unnecessary work to me, ordered by someone who couldn't make up his mind. Again, just a guess.

For the long work weeks, it's so hard to judge. B is a tools programmer / tech artist. A lot of his colleagues rely on the things he does. If he messes up, it might mean other people can't do their job. He had to go back in on a Friday night the other day, as he got a message that he broke something and someone still at work couldn't do anything. It's never been really bad, but he often stays for a bit longer to fix a bug or run some extra tests before submitting, just to make sure people can do their jobs.

It's definitely a shitty situation, and I'm happy to see some of the younger talent taking a stand against this kind of media and work protocols.
I wonder how it'll change going forward. The game industry has been brought to the point where it is now by a lot of young men, who weren't afraid to put the hours in for their passion projects. A lot of these men have families by now, and value their time in a different way. If they are in senior positions, they could change that mindset of the crunch. That's my just me trying to look at this in a positive way, but who knows.

three1ne

Wasn't LA Noire developed by another company who went bankrupt and sold the project (almost finished) to Rockstar?

With the other company being the one imposing bad working conditions.

hylian_elf

Team Bondi?

afgavinstan

Correct on both counts.

ShabbyMcCrabby

Yeah, from all I read at the time, the studio or other lead (can't remember which) was an absolute knob and made the whole thing horrible for everyone

Paul the sparky

My hopes of an early ShopTo delivery have been nixed by Rockstar.

Literally worse than slavery.

afgavinstan

R* HR now have emailed their staff and said its okay for them to speak on social media about RDR2 now it's finished.

This rumbles on..

Kernowgaz

Paul the sparky wrote:

My hopes of an early ShopTo delivery have been nixed by Rockstar.

Literally worse than slavery.

Bunch of cunts , might take a punt on Simply Games or The Game Collection then. They don’t mention anything on there sites but Shopto are probably being upfront about it.

What other company has done this ?

Dark Soldier

There's a R* employee on rllmuk who had this to say:

https://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?/topic/295221-red-dead-redemption-2-the-next-edge-10/&page=43&tab=comments#comment-12042356

Hey, I'm at R*. If it puts anyone's mind at rest, I can tell you that the issue has been widely misreported / misunderstood. However I do appreciate all the concern for our welfare, it is certainly an important conversation to have. For Red2 though, as far as I'm aware no one was ever compelled to work extra hours. It was all handled MUCH more maturely than in the old days.

For anyone interested:

About the most that ever happened was, during the final push we politely asked our team to do what they could. For some, that meant squeezing in a few extra hours here and there to get the game over the finish line. For others, they wanted to stick with core hours of 9 to 5 throughout the project and that was totally fine.

Personally I did some heavy hours at times, but it was entirely self inflicted on my part and I'd do it again. For me it is about trying to make the game that everyone expects from us, the game that we expect from ourselves. I feel immensely proud to make stuff that so many people care about, it isn't just a job for me, it is my life's work. And generally I would say the company is good at sharing success with its staff in terms of compensation afterwards etc. So don't cry for me too much I hope you guys enjoy the game, roll on the 26th![\quote]

Nina

ShabbyMcCrabby wrote:

Yeah, from all I read at the time, the studio or other lead (can't remember which) was an absolute knob and made the whole thing horrible for everyone

The link I posted at the top of the page is of an employer who joined Bondi after it was being taken over by Rockstar, and it still wasn't great. Could be that previous management screwed it up so much that this was the best Rockstar could do. Who knows.

For all the Rockstar employees telling their stories now, it's all Rockstar North so far. I've seen one tweet of someone who used to work at Lincoln, still has friends there and they've been crunching since 2017.

Rockstar San Diego is just starting I guess, it's 9:24am here. I've seen one tweet so far, a positive one. Keep in mind that while they apparently do get overtime paid from a certain amount of hours (Californian law), they can also be told they're fired and need to be gone by the end of the day (also Californian law afaik).

It's all fairly interesting, I still think Houser chose his words very badly and should have been more careful knowing Rockstar's reputation and the current discussions about game development in general.

equinox_code

Well yea, no employee hoping to keep their job was going to slag off their working bag conditions, were they.

Blocks100

We can we get down to the business of talking about playing Cowboys and Indians again?

Paul the sparky

equinox_code wrote:

Well yea, no employee hoping to keep their job was going to slag off their working bag conditions, were they.

A lot of them would be pumped once the job was finished and their contract was up though.

trippy

Blocks100 wrote:

We can we get down to the business of talking about playing Cowboys and Indians again?

nick_md

equinox_code wrote:

Well yea, no employee hoping to keep their job was going to slag off their working bag conditions, were they.

This is true, but also the description by the R* employee is precisely how things should be done and, in my experience, are. I've never worked AAA (dev side) though.

Bob

I bet it’s half the game ass creed is

hylian_elf

A half assed game.

[Deleted User]

nick_md wrote:

Maybe I got that wrong.

You did. Quite badly.

acemuzzy

Dark Soldier wrote:

There's a R* employee on rllmuk who had this to say:

https://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?/topic/295221-red-dead-redemption-2-the-next-edge-10/&page=43&tab=comments#comment-12042356

Hey, I'm at R*. If it puts anyone's mind at rest, I can tell you that the issue has been widely misreported / misunderstood. However I do appreciate all the concern for our welfare, it is certainly an important conversation to have. For Red2 though, as far as I'm aware no one was ever compelled to work extra hours. It was all handled MUCH more maturely than in the old days.

For anyone interested:

About the most that ever happened was, during the final push we politely asked our team to do what they could. For some, that meant squeezing in a few extra hours here and there to get the game over the finish line. For others, they wanted to stick with core hours of 9 to 5 throughout the project and that was totally fine.

Personally I did some heavy hours at times, but it was entirely self inflicted on my part and I'd do it again. For me it is about trying to make the game that everyone expects from us, the game that we expect from ourselves. I feel immensely proud to make stuff that so many people care about, it isn't just a job for me, it is my life's work. And generally I would say the company is good at sharing success with its staff in terms of compensation afterwards etc. So don't cry for me too much I hope you guys enjoy the game, roll on the 26th![\quote]

FAKE NEWS / manager post

nick_md

Andy wrote:

nick_md wrote:

Maybe I got that wrong.

You did. Quite badly.

"That's what Houser was doing, and that's what perpetrates it in the industry."

It was that^^ specifically, which I don't think I got wrong (assuming 'it' in this case refers to the reason people work long hours) but I'll continue to say maybe I did, for the sake of keeping the peace.

Perhaps McFly meant 'it' as in selling a title on the basis of hours put in, but tbh I've never seen that as being a 'thing' anyway.

Paul the sparky

This pic gets my juices flowing. Hope there are some mouthy gobshites in these saloons. I also hope that if you back chat the wrong fella and get a clip that it doesn't end with a stupid game over screen.

FranticPea

Aye. Looks so good.

ll installed and good to go. So hyped.

hylian_elf

Should I finish the first one first? I hear this is a prequel set 10 years prior.

Bob

I doubt you'll miss out on much...

Bob

Eurogamer reporting the fucker comes on two rootin' tootin' discs!

A first for this gen?

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