Politics of the Free - It’s because Democrats, stupid. - The Bear and Badger

Yossarian

RedDave2 wrote:

Yos, I'm not arguing that people didn't face different challenges or more when they are in different cultures and countries, my point is that they could have these cultures within Dublin without feeling they had to close off from the other cultures. My post wasn't about things being easier or better for me, it was that all the cultures got along. The Chinese, the Hungarians, the Nigerians, polish, the English all got along without feeling a need to exclude.

But you were being excluded, it's inevitable. I mean, simply having a meal just with your family is going to exclude any other culture in the majority of cases, and conversations will be had in those situations which won't be had outside them, purely owing to everyone sharing a common culture and set of knowledge relating to that culture. It's pretty much the same thing here, it's just that because these conversations are being held on a public platform anyone can jump in.

Dark Soldier

Liveinadive wrote:

Sure. I'm one for separating art from artist and it's not like he has gone full paedo or anything.

Think I'll buy a Jimmy Page t-shirt

see tempy's old sig I know its a tired act lads sorry

[Deleted User]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/02/donald-trump-nobel-peace-prize
Wot!?

Brooks

Nah, no shock there. These people are raw fuckholes let us recall.

[Deleted User]

This is definitely the new rhetoric though.
Trump, the man who saved Korea.

His legacy written in tweets.

[Deleted User]

I guess it is better than an illegal war in Iraq, I suppose that constitutes peace in America now.

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

Yos, I'm not arguing that people didn't face different challenges or more when they are in different cultures and countries, my point is thseeat they could have these cultures within Dublin without feeling they had to close off from the other cultures. My post wasn't about things being easier or better for me, it was that all the cultures got along. The Chinese, the Hungarians, the Nigerians, polish, the English all got along without feeling a need to exclude.

But you were being excluded, it's inevitable. I mean, simply having a meal just with your family is going to exclude any other culture in the majority of cases, and conversations will be had in those situations which won't be had outside them, purely owing to everyone sharing a common culture and set of knowledge relating to that culture. It's pretty much the same thing here, it's just that because these conversations are being held on a public platform anyone can jump in.

With respect, I think you're missing what I'm trying to say and I certainly am not getting your point.

Brooks

Since the root of the complaint seems to involve the ability to butt into anyone's conversation on social media, I'm going to say the key takeway is don't use Twitter.

Yossarian

RedDave2 wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

Yos, I'm not arguing that people didn't face different challenges or more when they are in different cultures and countries, my point is thseeat they could have these cultures within Dublin without feeling they had to close off from the other cultures. My post wasn't about things being easier or better for me, it was that all the cultures got along. The Chinese, the Hungarians, the Nigerians, polish, the English all got along without feeling a need to exclude.

But you were being excluded, it's inevitable. I mean, simply having a meal just with your family is going to exclude any other culture in the majority of cases, and conversations will be had in those situations which won't be had outside them, purely owing to everyone sharing a common culture and set of knowledge relating to that culture. It's pretty much the same thing here, it's just that because these conversations are being held on a public platform anyone can jump in.

With respect, I think you're missing what I'm trying to say and I certainly am not getting your point.

You’re saying that ideally, everyone would just get along without the need for spaces where people from a specific background would exclude people from another background. As an example of this, you’ve proffered a period in your life where you felt this has happened as an example of what the ideal is. I’m pointing out that that the minorities that you worked with in this time would always have been an opportunity to exclude you, and that they almost certainly did, maybe not to your face, but simply by choosing to spend time with people of a similar cultural background from time to time in order to be able to discuss things they wouldn’t have been able to discuss with those from a different background.

Yossarian

An alternative response to the situation playing out in practise:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RafiDAngelo/status/991487311656480768

djchump

Gosh, Trump just keeps surrounding himself with geniuses: https://boingboing.net/2018/05/02/giuliani-says-trump-paid-storm.html

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

Yos, I'm not arguing that people didn't face different challenges or more when they are in different cultures and countries, my point is thseeat they could have these cultures within Dublin without feeling they had to close off from the other cultures. My post wasn't about things being easier or better for me, it was that all the cultures got along. The Chinese, the Hungarians, the Nigerians, polish, the English all got along without feeling a need to exclude.

But you were being excluded, it's inevitable. I mean, simply having a meal just with your family is going to exclude any other culture in the majority of cases, and conversations will be had in those situations which won't be had outside them, purely owing to everyone sharing a common culture and set of knowledge relating to that culture. It's pretty much the same thing here, it's just that because these conversations are being held on a public platform anyone can jump in.

With respect, I think you're missing what I'm trying to say and I certainly am not getting your point.

You’re saying that ideally, everyone would just get along without the need for spaces where people from a specific background would exclude people from another background. As an example of this, you’ve proffered a period in your life where you felt this has happened as an example of what the ideal is. I’m pointing out that that the minorities that you worked with in this time would always have been an opportunity to exclude you, and that they almost certainly did, maybe not to your face, but simply by choosing to spend time with people of a similar cultural background from time to time in order to be able to discuss things they wouldn’t have been able to discuss with those from a different background.

Not quite. We were all able to converse on any range of topics include issues relating to our own cultures. Politics was often an issue and everyone could bring their own experience to the conversation and (crucially) could comment on others. We disagreed and argued sure over this things for sure, but there was never a straight "well, you arent x so you cant comment". There was explanation of why not being x meant you may be misunderstanding the situation or had gotten things wrong but no straight you have no space to comment here.

I understand your point, everyone needs their own space to fall back to, regardless of whether we are talking from a cultural or personal space but the key thing I may not be getting across is that the Kanye thing (to take it back to it) is as much about a celebrity figure in the public space as opposed to a purely black person. Therefore I feel everyone is entitled to comment on it.

hunk

White people commenting on black people and slavery is a bit like Germans commenting on Jewish people and the Holocaust. It's awkward....Lots of (racist?) idiots potentially derailing the discussion too.

But as a rule of thumb I agree with Reddave, there shouldn't be a reason why sane people cannot comment, regardless of skin tone.

djchump

RedDave2 wrote:

Yos, I'm not arguing that people didn't face different challenges or more when they are in different cultures and countries, my point is thseeat they could have these cultures within Dublin without feeling they had to close off from the other cultures. My post wasn't about things being easier or better for me, it was that all the cultures got along. The Chinese, the Hungarians, the Nigerians, polish, the English all got along without feeling a need to exclude.

But you were being excluded, it's inevitable. I mean, simply having a meal just with your family is going to exclude any other culture in the majority of cases, and conversations will be had in those situations which won't be had outside them, purely owing to everyone sharing a common culture and set of knowledge relating to that culture. It's pretty much the same thing here, it's just that because these conversations are being held on a public platform anyone can jump in.

With respect, I think you're missing what I'm trying to say and I certainly am not getting your point.

You’re saying that ideally, everyone would just get along without the need for spaces where people from a specific background would exclude people from another background. As an example of this, you’ve proffered a period in your life where you felt this has happened as an example of what the ideal is. I’m pointing out that that the minorities that you worked with in this time would always have been an opportunity to exclude you, and that they almost certainly did, maybe not to your face, but simply by choosing to spend time with people of a similar cultural background from time to time in order to be able to discuss things they wouldn’t have been able to discuss with those from a different background.

Not quite. We were all able to converse on any range of topics include issues relating to our own cultures. Politics was often an issue and everyone could bring their own experience to the conversation and (crucially) could comment on others. We disagreed and argued sure over this things for sure, but there was never a straight "well, you arent x so you cant comment". There was explanation of why not being x meant you may be misunderstanding the situation or had gotten things wrong but no straight you have no space to comment here. I understand your point, everyone needs their own space to fall back to, regardless of whether we are talking from a cultural or personal space but the key thing I may not be getting across is that the Kanye thing (to take it back to it) is as much about a celebrity figure in the public space as opposed to a purely black person. Therefore I feel everyone is entitled to comment on it.

There's kind of a difference between your mates and their families at an invited event, and random punters on twitter though, surely?

In that, yeah, your friends and family care about your opinion - do you expect every random person on the internet to feel the same way?
It's the difference between being in a pub and chatting with your black mates about it, or walking up to a group of black people you don't know who were talking about it and proferring your opinion. Well, maybe not actively walking over, maybe just chiming up if they were on the table next to yours, kind of thing. But you get the gist - there's a difference in how you gauge if it's something you can chime in with.

Yossarian

Wot Chump sed.

RedDave2

@chump - very fair point and I get that. But again, this isn't about a private conversation between groups of people. The crux of that is that if you are white you dont really get to talk to anyone black about what Kanye (a very public figure) is doing. I'm saying I dont think thats healthy, especially for a society like America where Kanye is both American and Black.

Regarding the pub analogy though, what if I am at one table discussing the Kanye issue with my friends and someone from another table taps me on the shoulder and says "you aren't allowed to talk about that".

Dont get me wrong, I do see the points you are making and I can see where my opinion also has faults. I'm just not sure the current approach is going to do anything other than segregate further.

@hunk - I dont think this is the same. . There's a narrative in that answer that all white people are somehow responsible and have committed slavery against black people which is false. My country didnt enslave any black people (yeah, we have our share of ignorant racist assholes but thats another issue) The Nordic countries generally didnt have specific black slave trade either (granted, the vikings did take slaves but skin wasnt the issue there) Russia didnt seem to have any involvement in the slave trade. Thats a hefty chunk of the white population.

And to push it further, most of the slave trade in europe was rich traders selling on to other countries. I'm not for one second excusing that but the average French or Brit didnt have black slaves. So why paint every white person with this brush? (that's a poor poor choice of words)

@facewon - sorry meant to get back to you. i very much realize I am pushing myself into a camp with Harris etc. and it's not one I wish to be in. But regarding your point on history and being able to move on, you are right it's not easy but living in the past is not going to get anyone anywhere.

Yossarian

RedDave2 wrote:

@chump - very fair point and I get that. But again, this isn't about a private conversation between groups of people. The crux of that is that if you are white you dont really get to talk to anyone black about what Kanye (a very public figure) is doing.

That’s not the crux of it at all.

Yossarian

The crux is don’t insert yourself in others’ public conversations in order to offer your own criticisms.

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

@chump - very fair point and I get that. But again, this isn't about a private conversation between groups of people. The crux of that is that if you are white you dont really get to talk to anyone black about what Kanye (a very public figure) is doing.

That’s not the crux of it at all.

We'll agree to disagree. That's my reading of the article that was posted. There's more nuance but basically the writer was saying you have nothing of value to add at any point because you are non-black so go be quiet. The assumption before the comment is made that it has nothing of value is a bad move to my view.

hunk

@RedDave2
See, this is the awkwardness I was getting at ;-)

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as accusing people.
It's more about what certain nation states did rather than the current citizens so not accusing you or the average white person.
All in US context of course.

djchump

RedDave2 wrote:

... Regarding the pub analogy though, what if I am at one table discussing the Kanye issue with my friends and someone from another table taps me on the shoulder and says "you aren't allowed to talk about that". ...

What about it? That's not what the article said. At all. That whole bit about "feel free to chat to all your white friends about it, but don't expect a bunch of black people you don't know to be welcoming if you rock up and start giving them your tuppence worth".

Plus, the general idea that I should be able to give my opinion to anyone on anything seems kind of entitled IMHO - in the same way I found it enlightening to hear Coates' reasoning behind why, actually, the n word just isn't for me, because not everything is for me:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/9/16627900/ta-nehisi-coates-n-word

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

The crux is don’t insert yourself in others’ public conversations in order to offer your own criticisms.

Just to clarify - I take it that if i posted on my (mostly dormant) twitter account that Kanye is a whole new level of asshole with his comments about slavery, the writer would prefer I just stayed silent. I dont think thats me jumping into others conversations.

RedDave2

hunk wrote:

@RedDave2 See, this is the awkwardness I was getting at Sorry, didn't mean to come across as accusing people. It's more about what certain nation states did rather than the current citizens so not accusing you or the average white person. All in US context of course.

I know this is awkward and I'm not taking any offence from anyone. For the most part I think everyones made good points against my own.

And I agree completely it is about certain nation states actions (and specifically the rich classes within those states) so why does all white and all western countries seem to be equally as complicit.

Yossarian

RedDave2 wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

The crux is don’t insert yourself in others’ public conversations in order to offer your own criticisms.

Just to clarify - I take it that if i posted on my (mostly dormant) twitter account that Kanye is a whole new level of asshole with his comments about slavery, the writer would prefer I just stayed silent. I dont think thats me jumping into others conversations.

I don’t think it is either, and nor do I think that was what was being criticised in the article.

Yossarian

I mean, posting on your own Twitter account is likely going to be seen by a mostly non-black audience anyway, no?

RedDave2

djchump wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

... Regarding the pub analogy though, what if I am at one table discussing the Kanye issue with my friends and someone from another table taps me on the shoulder and says "you aren't allowed to talk about that". ...

What about it? That's not what the article said. At all. That whole bit about "feel free to chat to all your white friends about it, but don't expect a bunch of black people you don't know to be welcoming if you rock up and start giving them your tuppence worth". Plus, the general idea that I should be able to give my opinion to anyone on anything seems kind of entitled IMHO - in the same way I found it enlightening to hear Coates' reasoning behind why, actually, the n word just isn't for me, because not everything is for me: https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/9/16627900/ta-nehisi-coates-n-word

Regarding your quote from the article - I'm not talking about me going up to the black folk, I'm talking about them coming up to me.

In terms of expressing your opinion - well this works both ways? Should we as europeans be silent on trump? on syria? on music not from the west? I'm using very broad strokes but I hope you get my point.

In a nutshell - if someone expresses an opinion you have a right to tell them their wrong. I dont think you have a clear cut right to tell them to be quiet especially because of their race.

Recently when the Black Panther movie was released in China, there was a huge amount of racist comments from the Chinese over the Black-centric cast. Even with other films, Black actors can suffer reduced roles to appease the Chinese market. I'm not Chinese so can I comment to a Chinese person about this, or post a comment on twitter?

The WWE did a big event in Saudi Arabi and bowed to requests to feature no women in any way despite being on their biggest push for women ever. They even left a Canadian wrestler of Syrian decent off the show. Should I not be allowed comment on that even though I am not american, saudi, or female (or a wrestler)?

djchump

RedDave2 wrote:

... Regarding the pub analogy though, what if I am at one table discussing the Kanye issue with my friends and someone from another table taps me on the shoulder and says "you aren't allowed to talk about that". ...

What about it? That's not what the article said. At all. That whole bit about "feel free to chat to all your white friends about it, but don't expect a bunch of black people you don't know to be welcoming if you rock up and start giving them your tuppence worth". Plus, the general idea that I should be able to give my opinion to anyone on anything seems kind of entitled IMHO - in the same way I found it enlightening to hear Coates' reasoning behind why, actually, the n word just isn't for me, because not everything is for me: https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/9/16627900/ta-nehisi-coates-n-word

Regarding your quote from the article - I'm not talking about me going up to the black folk, I'm talking about them coming up to me.

Has that happened? I doubt anyone has walked up to you and told you to "shut it, whitey". Even the article doesn't say that, so you can drop that whole line of reasoning if you like. It's starting to sound overly defensive IMHO.

RedDave2 wrote:

In terms of expressing your opinion - well this works both ways? Should we as europeans be silent on trump? on syria?

If a bunch of Syrians are chatting about how fucked up Syria is, I'm not about to start butting in to their conversation, even if it's to nod and agree. Just seems rude to me.

RedDave2 wrote:

In a nutshell - if someone expresses an opinion you have a right to tell them their wrong.

/shrug
So go tweet Kanye.

RedDave2 wrote:

I dont think you have a clear cut right to tell them to be quiet especially because of their race. Recently when the Black Panther movie was released in China, there was a huge amount of racist comments from the Chinese over the Black-centric cast. Even with other films, Black actors can suffer reduced roles to appease the Chinese market. I'm not Chinese so can I comment to a Chinese person about this, or post a comment on twitter? The WWE did a big event in Saudi Arabi and bowed to requests to feature no women in any way despite being on their biggest push for women ever. They even left a Canadian wrestler of Syrian decent off the show. Should I not be allowed comment on that even though I am not american, saudi, or female (or a wrestler)?

I really don't care what you do. Feel free to tweet whatever you want at whoever you want. That's the main reason I don't use fucking twitter.

Yossarian

You keep on stripping this down to ‘am I allowed to express an opinion to minority X about this?’ which is an oversimplification of the article.

Taking your BP example, if there was a conversation between Chinese anti-racist activists about the reception of BP and how to deal with it, do you think you’d have much wisdom that you can jump in to impart there?

Were a group of Saudi women discussing the pressures they face at home, would you jump in there?

The argument isn’t ‘you aren’t allowed to comment’ or even, ‘you aren’t allowed to comment to minority X’, it’s about choosing the best place to express those opinions rather than using the opportunity to try and teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

You keep on stripping this down to ‘am I allowed to express an opinion to minority X about this?’ which is an oversimplification of the article. Taking your BP example, if there was a conversation between Chinese anti-racist activists about the reception of BP and how to deal with it, do you think you’d have much wisdom that you can jump in to impart there? Were a group of Saudi women discussing the pressures they face at home, would you jump in there? The argument isn’t ‘you aren’t allowed to comment’ or even, ‘you aren’t allowed to comment to minority X’, it’s about choosing the best place to express those opinions rather than using the opportunity to try and teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

You know, I think you're mostly right there. No, actually you're completely right on the above. Maybe I am over simplifying this.

Ok, I'm kinda rethinking things a bit (good job badgers) Appreciate the comments.

However... I'm not looking to start up again but I had to respond to one of Chumps things.

djchump wrote:

Has that happened? I doubt anyone has walked up to you and told you to "shut it, whitey". Even the article doesn't say that, so you can drop that whole line of reasoning if you like. It's starting to sound overly defensive IMHO.

Actually twice in times quite recently. While in the states I was having a troubling conversation with a guy about various US issues (I think I mentioned this in another thread) and when discussing the racism of trumps actions (and this was more in relation to Muslims) I was told I'm not american, I dont know what the Muslims did, and I should stop right now. He was white.

The second time was a conversation with a friend of a friend who was a black american and the issue of appropriation came up. I joked how come white people cant withold the likes of iphones and MS windows as these came from white culture, or the 3 piece suit, or (relevant to me) St Patricks day? It was a bit of a poor joke comment I admit but the patricks day comment is valid but instead of any type of comment back I was simply told I was white and should not comment on appropriation as I dont get it. End conversation. Que awkward silence.

Maybe the above dont fit into this comment in the way I thought, but thats my experience.

Yossarian

I think we need a monument to this thread. An actual argument concerning race on the internet that not only remained civil throughout but also resulted in someone changing their mind and admitting it.

Actually, fuck a monument, perhaps a nobel peace prize is more fitting?

Howdy, Stranger!

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