monkey wrote:

'the way in which a series of events is laid out', then games can be great at it.

But that in itself if a limiting definition that fails to cover all of the different ways that games and narrative intersect. What about games that don't lay any events out but which I still create stories in, for instance?

Yossarian wrote:

monkey wrote:

'the way in which a series of events is laid out', then games can be great at it.

But that in itself if a limiting definition that fails to cover all of the different ways that games and narrative intersect. What about games that don't lay any events out but which I still create stories in, for instance?

That would be unique and emergent story telling. That counts.

'Telling' is the word to dispense with. The relationship there is too loaded to be useful.

I'd maintain that context/scenario writing (and then presentation) is distinct from it.

IanHamlett wrote:

Finding the breadcrumbs of a story that's already happened is a good one. You can't guarantee that the player will find all the crumbs or that they'll find them in a set order. It can be electrifying finding the piece that makes all the others make sense.

Aye, games can do that well. Skyrim has a load of those, just shit out in the world, a few corpses, letters and what not and boom, a story happened.

Brooks wrote:

'Telling' is the word to dispense with. The relationship there is too loaded to be useful.

I'd maintain that context/scenario writing (and then presentation) is distinct from it.

True, but the issue for me is that most games (even the sacred HL2) choose not to dispense with it, neither as a descriptor for what they're doing, nor as a way to approach the job itself.

The mute protagonist thing doesn't work past games like Zelda. Once they start looking more like films, it's just fucking weird to have a guy not talk and everyone else be just fine with it.

Player actions that combine with the told story to make it more than the cutscene/dialogue would be on their own. Dragon Quest IX is a good example. As the player you do the usual hero stuff, like exploring dungeons, fighting monsters and finding the treasure, in order to help people in the various towns and villages. But while you save them from these fantasy dangers, you can't save them from ordinary life, as people die from illness, accidents and other normal tragedies. It changes the meaning of your acts, and defines the limits of being a hero. It's also a great touch that the main character is an immortal observer of human life, charged with guarding them against dangers. And then when the grand narrative finally kicks in, it puts all the death into perspective again by showing the potential torment of immortality.

I should play it again actually. It's really good.

IanHamlett wrote:

The mute protagonist thing doesn't work past games like Zelda. Once they start looking more like films, it's just fucking weird to have a guy not talk and everyone else be just fine with it.

I think this was one of my big stumbling blocks with Half Life 2.
Having people talking at you while you sit there mute is just plain strange.

In Zelda it is one step removed anyway as the dialogue is all written,  the way they talk is often as if Link has replied.

IanHamlett wrote:

With the exception of Gears Of War, stories in games are usually sub standard

WUHT? This is a troll yes?

Makes me think of something I've just read in Eurogamer from this article:

There is, disappointingly, virtually no discussion of gameplay mechanics or how designers ply their trade, but there are endless references to storytelling, character and immersion. It even trots out the terrible old cliché of the campfire storyteller, and suggests games are the futuristic inheritor of that iconic mantle. If you can hold back the vomit when Astin solemnly intones that, in gaming, "the campfire is just a bit brighter and more colourful" then you have a stronger stomach than me. That Gears of War is held up as one such shining example, making gamer's cry with the saga of Dom's mummified wife, only underlines the lunacy of this blinkered definition.

Brooks wrote:

'Telling' is the word to dispense with. The relationship there is too loaded to be useful. I'd maintain that context/scenario writing (and then presentation) is distinct from it.

I said it in one of the other threads: games with exposition to drive the story are worse for it.

To me, the better stories in games are scant on details, yet the world and the context of the environment tell much of the tale implicitly.

Skerret wrote:

Hellz yeah.  To be fair, dead wife was fucking hilarious and effectively entertaining.

I thought it fitted in brilliantly with the overall tone of repressed homosexuality. The sense of relief when he has to kill her is palpable, and he can finally rejoin the boys and be himself, without the denial or guilt that was previously weighing hm down.

I haven't played much of Oddworld : Stranger's Wrath, but did maybe the first hour of it round at a friend's house when it came first came out on Oldbox. Looked like it was trying something interesting with the protagonist being as thick as pigshit.

I think I've got it as a PS+ shame piler. I might start that tonight.

SW also has one of the most memorable plot moments in games, and it changes the game itself. Great example of a good bit of story crafting.

I also think that even excluding all the pretentious stuff, there are some examples of straightforward high quality cutscene storytelling in games.  I mean, barring the script (which could easily be improved), Final Fantasy VII is streets ahead of most fantasy films. Its characters, plot, locations, sense of adventure, emotional weight and tacked on environmental message are the sorts of things Hollywood writers can only dream of. And then you also get to fuck around with materia.

It'll come back if you sub again. At least all of my stuff has both times I've lapsed. Idk if it's changed with Sony's innumerable tos changes.