Climate change apathy Ragnarok thread - The Bear and Badger

Funkstain

I think (not sure, still working it out) that I'm talking about something different, in between something like "personal responsibility" and "how can we do much/ anything when faced with this shit".

Actually yes, I suppose you're right - muddying the waters. Because perhaps there aren't such clear boundaries between what "we can do" as individuals or social groups / communities of humans, and what corporations and governments will do? That sorts out the control vs blame bit: the interconnectedness of human systems. We bear very little responsibility and therefore very little of the blame at the individual level - but that scales up right? through the hierarchy of systems?

The very thing you mention in the last paragraph - the social side of things - I believe can and must have an impact on larger connected systems: local government, national government, new corporations satisfying an ethical demand (again, I'm not trying to over simplify, just trying to get my current thinking across: I'm aware that "boutique ethical shopping" is mostly, today, an iniquitous wealth display, but it doesn't have to be), old corporations (slowly, unwillingly, but surely) changing their methods.

Again, the main point driving this thinking is that if it doesn't, if there is no impact at the individual or social group / community end of things on higher systems, then we may as well simply rage at the dying of the planet, shaking our impotent fists at our hidden ambivalent overlords destroying our everything.

I'm aware this sounds a bit over the top, and also that even if I'm right to some degree, that degree may not be enough pun intended lol but like I said just writing down thoughts really, and I appreciate the replies because they help that thinking a lot

Diluted Dante

Funkstain wrote:

Hmm. It doesn’t seem to be comparing like with like - sales of bags for life vs use of free single use plastic bags. I would like to see that, but understand that at this stage it’s quibbling over not a lot or very much not a lot.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. It's saying that single use bags are down, but have been replaced by bags for life, which use much more plastic and aren't being re-used, meaning that shoppers are not using any less amount of plastic than they were before. The Iceland bloke spells it out:

“These bags for life are a thicker, higher grade of plastic… We are selling less of them but it’s not yet less enough that it’s compensated in terms of the extra weight that they are for the fewer amount of bags that we are selling. So therefore I haven’t yet reduced the total amount of plastic weight, even though I have eliminated 5p carrier bags.”

Funkstain

So wait - are the stats that people are buying bags, at 5p a pop, to the extent of almost re-creating the total plastic used by single use bags? If so that is insane and extremely demoralising. I literally don't know anyone who buys the bags for life other than in annoying (forgot their forever bags) emergencies, like once in two dozen shops. This has never happened to me on a big shop, and maybe 5-6 times on a interim shop.

If the plastic used in a BfL is, say, 3 times that of a single use, and the average shop used, say, 3 single use bags, that means that people are buying a BfL every time they shop, that's proper crazy behaviour which certainly puts the skids on my thoughts regarding naturally scaling "ethical" behaviour...

LivDiv

I would take what the Iceland bloke says with a massive pinch of salt.
They said they would make all their own brand plastic free (or cut down on packaging, cant remember the exact pledge) but just started removing their logo and using the exact same packaging as before.

Paul the sparky

It also puts the skids on my reckoning that top down legislation will provide the kick up the arse we all need. Stupid finds a way.

LivDiv

Also Iceland's 5p bags are (were?) fucking massive but still very thin, like the old style bags we used to have but triple the size. Given their size, quality and nature of Iceland's product I would be suprised if many even make it home.

Paul the sparky

They're ok if you quadruple up.

Funkstain

Paul the sparky wrote:

They're ok if you quadruple up.

lolcry

LivDiv

In general I think the things we can do to help with climate change can have benefits outside of climate change and are often worthwhile doing to degrees anyway.

Recycling/composting.
Means my main bin isn't a stinking mass full of angular shit stabbing through the side of the bag.
Compost bin goes to my parent's place for their veg plot and eventually becomes free, organic food.

Bags for Life
Sturdier, dont cut into my hands, easier to pack on the go if using the wand thing. Not filling up my bin with carrier bags. Dont look like a jellyfish lunch to sea animals.

Minimising and more sensible purchases.
Less tat filling up the house. More money to buy better and longer lasting things I actually want and need. Appreciate what you have more. Makes moving house a lot easier.

Not driving for commuting.
Less personal stress. Time for reading etc. Potentially cheaper.

Electric cars.
If spending that kind of money on a car anyway then a cheaper option to run. Better quality air in your community.

Eating less/no meat.
Cheaper healthier in general. Can push you to explore new cuisine and improve cooking ability.

Not flying is probably the hardest to find positive spins for. It is easy for me because I hate being around people in airports more than I like holidays abroad.

[Deleted User]

Funkstain wrote:

So wait - are the stats that people are buying bags, at 5p a pop, to the extent of almost re-creating the total plastic used by single use bags? If so that is insane and extremely demoralising.

I work with a number of people who rarely bring lunch to work, and never take a bag with them to go and buy their lunch. In that situation, I would just use my hands, seeing as they’re capable of carrying three or four items, but I see my colleagues arriving back with new 5p and 10p bags every time.

These same people throw recycling in the general waste, and mock me for taking recyclables home. One of them recently fished dozens and dozens of bags for life out of her drawers. I’m pretty sure they all went in the bin.

LivDiv

Like putting plastic in the bin makes them the Fonz or something. Jesus christ.

Funkstain

Right well. I'll cling on to the idea that cultural change - such as what's acceptable behaviour and what isn't - takes a long time but sometimes gets there in the end...

Liv's list is also why I think these kinds of changes will happen eventually: they simply make sense for many other reasons beyond, you know, not living on Venus MkII

Funkstain

Paul the sparky wrote:

It also puts the skids on my reckoning that top down legislation will provide the kick up the arse we all need. Stupid finds a way.

A funny example of this round my way is simple escalation. Used to be, there was a sign saying "Please don't let your dog shit not on the pavement, it's not nice". That didn't work, amazingly, so sign was changed to "don't let your dog shit or you'll be fined". There was a reduction but still too much hopping and skipping over turds, so a new sign "let your dog shit and we'll fine you instantly £80 and take you to court and fine you another £1000" and then someone was actually fined, in court, £500. Not much pavement dog shit since then.

Funkstain

What I'm saying is charge people £50 per plastic bag

Diluted Dante

Funkstain wrote:

So wait - are the stats that people are buying bags, at 5p a pop, to the extent of almost re-creating the total plastic used by single use bags? If so that is insane and extremely demoralising. I literally don't know anyone who buys the bags for life other than in annoying (forgot their forever bags) emergencies, like once in two dozen shops. This has never happened to me on a big shop, and maybe 5-6 times on a interim shop.

If the plastic used in a BfL is, say, 3 times that of a single use, and the average shop used, say, 3 single use bags, that means that people are buying a BfL every time they shop, that's proper crazy behaviour which certainly puts the skids on my thoughts regarding naturally scaling "ethical" behaviour...

Yeah, basically, the total amount of plastic used by shoppers for bags before the ban is the same as the amount of plastic used now. It's just shifted from "here are a load of free bags" to people paying for the thicker ones, just not on every shop.

I do sometimes forget bags myself, or over-estimate what will fit in my bags, so have to buy more, so I can see how people who don't try would end up just buying bags.

[Deleted User]

Funkstain wrote:

What I'm saying is charge people £50 per plastic bag

I definitely think the prices need to go up drastically. 5p or 10p is nothing for people who think £3+ per day on lunch is fine.

Facewon

We've certainly bought more bfl than we need, but still mostly use them.

Best thing I've done is buy proper nice reusable. $20, and I keep it in my backpack. (it's one that has its own little pouch. Now even when I'm coming home from work and need emergency supplies, bag on hand.

Even better when doing other shopping.

GooberTheHat

Funkstain wrote:

What I'm saying is charge people £50 per plastic bag

Or, just ban plastic bags.

poprock

Getting everyone to properly separate their household recycling would make a much bigger difference, but that’s hard to do so y’know, let’s not bother.

GooberTheHat

How do you do that (get people to do it properly)?

Facewon

Or even better, let's privatise the companies who deal with said rubbish and then just dump it all in the one space and not tell anyone.

We basically had the sopranos running shit here for a while.

GooberTheHat

poprock wrote:

Getting everyone to properly separate their household recycling would make a much bigger difference, but that’s hard to do so y’know, let’s not bother.

Or we could tax the manufacturers of the problem instead of putting the emphasis on the solution down to the consumer. Make environmentally friendly packaging more cost effective for the companies that make it and problem solved.

Skerret

Face did you see the Morrison presser just now? Trumpesque lying and self-aggrandizing, and blames the Greens again for basically everything. I am very fucking furious m8 can we have a protest I need to vent.

Australia 2020, climate horror poster child.

Facewon

I try not to watch pressers live.

Skerret

It's been tough but I've managed. Seeing him wilfully lie in real time knowing the exact back story is quite something.

Paul the sparky

Facewon wrote:

Or even better, let's privatise the companies who deal with said rubbish and then just dump it all in the one space and not tell anyone.

We basically had the sopranos running shit here for a while.

Aye. Even if we got everyone recycling 100% of their household waste, how much of what goes into the blue bin actually gets recycled and how much of it ends up in a landfill in Malaysia or somewhere? Are we in the UK now burning more plastic because China won't accept it anymore?

We're again concentrating on household waste as if that's the major issue, while commercial and industrial waste gets nary a mention. I get that it's because we're looking at it from a position of what we can do, but I'm afraid it looks to me like we can't do much of significance.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49827945

Facewon

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/1/australia-bushfires-climate-change-new-south-wales-scott-morrison?fbclid=IwAR2k0q0axGQSzjqjKPMohciwJVCcTzBj_a5k5eF-Au4xY338bcUioiuFCgg

Good summary of the state of our pollies and their reaction to the fires.

poprock

The most recent data I have to hand on UK waste totals is from 2017. I have more up to date stuff at work, but it’s Saturday, so give me a break.

All of these figures have been improved upon in the last two years, I know that much.

Total waste recorded in the UK: 222.9 million tonnes.

Of which commercial & industrial waste: 41.1 million tonnes.

Which leaves 181.8 million tonnes of household waste.

Household waste is by far the bigger issue.

Of the total 222.9 million tonnes, 104 million tonnes was collected for recycling or recovery whilst only 52.3 million tonnes went to landfill.

The UK collects far more for recycling than it dumps into the ground.

The problem is what happens to that collected recyclable waste. The Government doesn’t share clear facts on who sorts it, where it is sold or sent to, and whether any of it actually gets recycled.

I believe the big steps needed in our waste management strategies are in generating ‘cleaner’ recyclable waste that has higher value to the recycling industry, whether that is done at the consumer/household end or by improved sorting techniques at the waste management end. And yes, the consumer product industries (particularly good and drink) could help by rethinking their packaging priorities.

Paul the sparky

Wait. There are 28 million households in the UK, responsible for 181 million tonnes of waste? So over 6 million tonnes of waste per household?

Doesn't sound particularly feasible.

Is the info in this link bunk then?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49827945

[Deleted User]

Paul the sparky wrote:

Wait. There are 28 million households in the UK, responsible for 181 million tonnes of waste? So over 6 million tonnes of waste per household? Doesn't sound particularly feasible.

That would just be six tonnes per household, but still not feasible.

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