Was also commented how unusual it was for him to be convicted on one charge but not another - can't remember the specifics, but, guilty of murder, but not of kidnapping or imprisonment or such? Almost as if it were a horse trading situation.

pantyfire wrote:

I can think he's guilty and also believe there's reasonable doubt to not convict at the same time.

This my major issue, juries don't tend to realise this _should_ be one's conclusion. Too subjective.

It could be that they were out to get Avery for whatever has happened with Brendan, perhaps.

Although, I'd've still chased up the ex-bf, previous 24hours movements, corroborators- because nearest and dearest are most likely anyone's killers.

I guess if the media and the police and everyone but the defence team are telling you that that guy over there is the one who killed your sister then you'd probably go with it. You wonder if he feels at all different now that the doco is out

Essentially in my view the prosecution story relies on this:

He has the skill planning and ability to clear all trace dna from the key, the bedroom or garage, and get rid of all murder weapons YET some how only able to hide a car in a 40 acre car yard on the edge behind some sticks, and next to a crusher.

?!

nick_md wrote:

— Avery had purchased handcuffs and leg irons like the ones Dassey described holding Halbach only three weeks before (Avery said he’s purchased them for use with his girlfriend, Jodi, with whom he’d had a tumultuous relationship — at one point, he was ordered by police to stay away from her for three days).

There is no law against owning handcuffs or leg irons and it may not have been a secret that they were in Avery's possession, hence the inclusion in Dassey's account. The tumultuous relationship part could be further character assassination - Jodi was also ordered to stay away from Avery for several weeks, no? After waving to him during a period where no contact was allowed. What were the reasons of this restraining order placed on Avery?

It's worth asking, but if, indeed, the relationship was rocky/etc a restraining order certainly paints an interesting picture. I'd also suggest that anyone wanting to use the they're dumb defense can't then turn around and say why would he do x when he's about to get y. Answer: he's not that sharp.

I don't know that the prosecution ever found the actual crime scene so anything about how she died, outside of definitely being shot, is murky.

Also, re character assassination, I'd like to know what relevance the DAs dirty sexts have to do with the case. Dude is clearly a hypocrite, and clearly did many things wrong with the case, as has been covered, but that's pure playing the man not the argument.

There's a whole field of cars and vehicles and whatnot is there not? I wonder if they forensically searched any other vehicles. Seems they had trucks and cars ahoy.

ShabbyMcCrabby wrote:

I guess if the media and the police and everyone but the defence team are telling you that that guy over there is the one who killed your sister then you'd probably go with it. You wonder if he feels at all different now that the doco is out

The family are reportedly not happy.

pantyfire wrote:

Nah. I think he did do it. 
I'm not sure why but I think he did. 
BUT I also think the police manufactured and placed evidence to get him. 
I can think he's guilty and also believe there's reasonable doubt to not convict at the same time.

This is interesting, it's the other side of the coin that the doc is getting at really.
What if the police 'know'someone is guilty but can't find enough evidence to convict..is getting the 'right' decision less important than the defendants right to a fair trial?

How do you "know" if you don't have the evidence though?

Although it was almost as heavily presented throughout the doco as the main Steven Avery didn't do it gaiyz angle they were projecting, it's really fucking sad to me that the phrase "Innocent until PROVEN guilty" actually needs to be explained or that people would argue against it in a developed country. 

I mean shit, otherwise you're just basically this:

If evidence is dismissed it means that the state hasn't done its job properly.

Remember what you are putting on the line for an individual, essentially a meaningful life, that persons freedoms. If slapdash and sloppiness are aloud to creep in then you undermine the basis of the power that society grants to take liberty away.

I watched the first 4 episodes of this fully then half watched the rest with the wife, who filled me in on the details I missed. Fuck me it was a tough watch. Im not usually one for true crime stuff as the events tend to stay with me a bit. It was the police/justice system that kept me watching. Incredible.
I don't know if Steven did it. If pushed Id say he didn't. That isn't to say that others in his family were not responsible.
I do think though that he was stitched up by the cops/state because of his civil action that he looked like he was going to win. It was a very clever plan. Frame him, muddy the fuck out of his name and then offer him a pittance payoff that he was forced to accept in order to hire defense for this new trail.Simple as that. Everything from then on was about ensuring that he was convicted.
Some stuff really stood out though.
The search on the property. Come on. Seriously. Nothing is found for three days but then when the "hero" cops from his first case appear on the scene the key to her vehicle is just found lying there in full view on the bedroom floor? Fuck right off. Also ONLY his DNA appeared on it? So he completely cleaned off all traces of DNA from her car key, then rubbed his hands all over it? That doesn't even make sense.
SA is of below average intelligence sure but to leave the woman's car key that he just murdered in his bedroom? To wipe it totally clean but then handle it so that his DNA got back on? No.

Also the point of her car. Say he did the crime, he disposed of the body but decided to leave the car is full view? And keep the key handy?  He tried to "hide" the car on his own property in a Scooby Doo like manner? In the documentary the car looked like it was hidden in a way that would be akin to a thief trying to look inconspicuous by standing around and whistling nervously. Will I get rid of the murdered woman's car in my conveniently placed car crusher, that is just over there? Nope. Fuck it Ill just put some small branches around it. No one will ever see it there.

Brendan. Guilty or not, how can anything he says be taken as solid evidence in court? Poor bastard couldn't tell you what day it is never mind stand up to questioning from detectives. My understanding of court cases comes mainly from Suits and Law & Order and the like so my knowledge is virtually nil. But if an interview is illegally conducted doesn't that make the information gained from the interview inadmissible?
Also the detectives pretty clearly just told Brendan what to say. Poor fucker was worried if he would get out of the interview in time for school. And Len. Fuck me what a guy. Leaving Len out of this, the "investigator" he sent to Brendan. Wow. Telling him to draw pictures of specific things etc. That alone....

Also some of the cops still insisting that SA was guilty of the first crime even though the other guy confessed and DNA proved it was him, they still think it was SA. To stitch a guy up is one thing. But by doing so allowing the actually serial rapist(whose behavior was escalating) wander free?

For me the case is two separate issues: 1) The behavior of police and state regarding SA and BA and 2)The actual crime.
I definitely think that there are a few bad eggs in the police/legal system that conspired to get SA convicted no matter what. That meant media smear campaigns,evidence tampering,jury shenanigan,coerced confession from a family member,specially placed public defender for BA and so on.
2) The actual crime. I half suspected that the police themselves shot the woman in the head and I thought at least she wouldn't have suffered too much. The crime was suspiciously close to when (i cant rightly remember) further depositions or the case was being heard for SA's civil damages suit were about to kick off. But seeing her brother and the ex bf I cant help but be highly suspicious of them. Sending the cousin off to a specific area of SA's junkyard to search and her being the only one given a camera?  Her finding the vehicle very quickly? I missed the parts that may have suggested that other members of the SA family murdered her. That could well have been the case. But who knows? As far as I'm concerned her murder was not investigated at all. All efforts were piled into SA's conviction. Its awful to think of the lives ruined and lost in this.

A minor thing, but SA's girlfriend Jody(i think). When arrested for drinking, why was ALL contact with SA forbidden? And then for her to be put in prison because she waved at him? Nuts.

The jury, just incredible again. One member saying they were scared of being framed by the police? Two others related to sheriffs? I know the defense were aware of that but couldnt do anything because they had used up their blackballs already.  Which leads me to think that the jury selection process was skewed.

And Ken Kratz.....He fucking loved every minute of this. There was one point he was giving a press conference and he visibly took immense pleasure in detailing exactly what was done to Theresa. Sickening.

SA's lawyers were fucking epic. They could defend me any day, hubba hubba.

It can be easy to forget,but a woman lost her life in this and she deserves a proper investigation and I hope the guilty parties are brought to justice.

EDIT: I got about the appeals etc. How the fuck is it fair for an appeal to be heard by the same fucking people that locked you up???? Particularly in this case.

http://www.avclub.com/article/read-pro-steven-avery-list-what-was-left-out-makin-230634?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=Default:1:Default

The other side of a list.

I dislike the redditness of all of them.

RAGE

Investigators never dusted the Toyota key (with Steven’s DNA) for fingerprints.