Zelda - The Bear and Badger

Sasukekun

Fentonizer wrote:

http://tevisthompson.com/saving-zelda/ This is the best Zelda critique I've read. Not saying I agree and that Zelda is teh suxx0r but if you are an unwavering Zelda fan this is an insightful read to see the side of those trolls who disagree with you.

tl:dr. Maybe later

Skerret

Escape wrote:

Skerret wrote:

Those opinions were spawned by Other People Reg, big difference.

I didn't see the knife coming from your fine pro-lib nation of mulleted uters.

It was a spoon.

mk64

Wow, just finished the artcle.

I understand what the guy is saying and agree with the facts in principle
1) Zelda has been too easy since LTTP
2) The world doesn't have enough exploration, the game is too linear
3) Quests are shit

I think those were three of the main points i took from it.

To be honest though all of those three points are there for a reason.

When OoT was being made 3D was just becoming popular on the N64. I would bet that developers would have had an eye on the side of caution that players would be able to adapt from 2D exploration to 3D exploration easily. Its also a pretty massive game. Ok, not by today's standards but at the time it was huge. If you make it harder its going to increase the length of the game X amount. All of which might have put players off. Especially if they knew MM was coming out after which WOULD be a harder version of a very similar game. You can imagine it around the table "break em in gently".

Since then no one has really ever moaned Zelda is too easy.. i've never heard that. In the same way no one ever moans that Mario is too easy.. yet the die hard would always like a more tricky Mario game.

The linear element ties in part with the point above but otherwise fair enough, it is quite linear, some players actually like that.

The last point about trials and quests, after OoT, where some people voiced very loudly that they loved the side quests, Nintendo listened and have made that a staple part of the series since.. most games of a similar ilk have sidequests too.

There was quite a backlash over the difficulty of Zelda 1 and 2 at the time iirc from reading reviews from the day.

All this Zelda talk is giving me the bug to play some tonight. I'm going to pick up DX and fucking finish that bitch. Last I remember I was totally lost and throwing some boulders around.

mistercrayon

Zelda 1 is not the best Zelda. The best you can say is that the puzzles are much harder in the overworld but only because they are ridiculously obtuse.

mk64

I was finding some of the puzzles in DX obtuse.

retroking1981

Fentonizer wrote:

http://tevisthompson.com/saving-zelda/

This is the best Zelda critique I've read. Not saying I agree and that Zelda is teh suxx0r but if you are an unwavering Zelda fan this is an insightful read to see the side of those trolls who disagree with you.

This is a very interseting article and I've spent the last 15 minutes reading it whilst at work, so I'm gonna have to cut it short.

Its refreshing to hear someone talk highly of the 8Bit games and actually be dissapointed with ALttP.

My initial thoughts are that game design in general has changed not just Zelda. Most games these days hold you by the hand instead of throwing you in the deep end. You can't really blame Nintendo go carrying on down the Link to the Past road with the critical acclaim it got, especially after Ocarina got even more for being more LttP than Legend.

Legend and Adventure were like most NES games, rock hard. Mega Man, Castlevania, Contra even Mario were all much much easier on SNES than NES. Whilst I agree that the newer Zelda are easy and you don't die enough, the person who wrote this article comlpeted ALttP in one weekend and most of us here are holding that game up as the best in the series.

He said he was 11 or 12 (I forgot now) when he played the NES ones. Well I was 12 when I played the SNES and 17 for the N64 game and they're my favourites.

Nostalgia is a bitch, I think if most of us was to write down how old we were next to our favourite in the series the common denominator would be our ages not the game.

Street Fighter IV for example is the best fighting game I think I've ever played but I haven't spent more than 10-15 hours on it. I probably played World Warrior more than than in one weekend in 1992.

Tempy

mk64 wrote:

I was finding some of the puzzles in DX obtuse.

I finished Awakening when I was In primary school, pre-Internet, but I reckon they'd send me scurrying for an FAQ if I was playing for the first time now, because I have a lowered tolerance for puzzles, not cos they're especially hard or weird or anything. I can remember them all off by heart to this day though.

igorgetmeabrain

Though it is thought-provoking and well-written, I almost entirely disagree with that article.
Also, out of interest, when does LttP get good? I've done the first four dungeons and am on my way to fight Agahnim but am finding the whole thing rather an aimless chore.
I've completed most other Zeldas and adored most of them but can't seem to get to grips with this one; This is the second time I've lost interest at around the same point. I found even the original LoZ more absorbing than LttP.

mk64

Tempy wrote:

mk64 wrote:

I was finding some of the puzzles in DX obtuse.

I finished Awakening when I was In primary school, pre-Internet, but I reckon they'd send me scurrying for an FAQ if I was playing for the first time now, because I have a lowered tolerance for puzzles, not cos they're especially hard or weird or anything. I can remember them all off by heart to this day though.

can I pm you if i get stuck?

Sasukekun

There's much more game to go Igor.
Not to mention a few secrets to find.

Tempy

mk64 wrote:

Tempy wrote:

mk64 wrote:

I was finding some of the puzzles in DX obtuse.

I finished Awakening when I was In primary school, pre-Internet, but I reckon they'd send me scurrying for an FAQ if I was playing for the first time now, because I have a lowered tolerance for puzzles, not cos they're especially hard or weird or anything. I can remember them all off by heart to this day though.

can I pm you if i get stuck?

Of course!

mk64

cheers

retroking1981

@Tempy - thats kinda my point, these days gamers in general need guidance. I guess its just the way things are these days. Our attention spans are lower and we are more easily distracted. Most people can't even watch a film these days with out going on their smartphone for something every 5 minutes.

@igorgetmeabrain - interesting that you don't like LttP. Again is this because you haven't got nostalgia goggles for it? Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (although definitely the worst but I can't think of a better example off the top of my head), for example is torn apart by fans, generally the same people that love Temple of Doom. Temple of Doom isn't a great film really but most of us have great memories of loving it as a kid, 3 feet in front of a 18" 4:3 TV eating Birdseye Turkey drummers and alphabites.

mk64

retro, just so we are on the same page. I never ate Birdseye Turkey drummers.

Brooks

LttP is a fucking doddle to negotiate what happens next. Has the best pacing of any of them.

Sasukekun

http://medialib.computerandvideogames.com/screens/dir_3003/image_300356_orig.jpg

JonB

The introduction of the gobby sidekick has probably been Zelda's biggest wrong turn. Reaching its zenith in Skyward Sword as a near game ruining distraction. A STFU option would restore some of the puzzle challenge without any other alterations.

But then, a new set of tools is the other issue - it's easier because I've done it before - and that's more terminal. Zelda will be really good again when it stops being Zelda.

mk64

not much has changed then!

nice find sas.

fullspectrum

The one on the right looks more appealing at this stage.

Brooks

A little de-saturation wouldn't hurt, at very least.

Dubs

I replayed a few after Skyward Sword, hoping that it would restore my faith in the series, it used to be good right? Nintendo magazine said so. Got through Wind Waker, Awakening (bestest, my first) and about 3 hours into Ocarina before I turned off the GC in disgust/tears.

Playing the original at the moment and was feeling optimistic until I read that Aonuma quote. Would love it if the next Zelda gave you such little exposition and so much rope to hang yourself with. Maybe a little less rope actually as I'm stuck in the 9th Dungeon and have apparently missed an essential item.

igorgetmeabrain

Since the brilliant but hugely flawed WW, the series has never recovered, but MM is the series highlight for me, by a longshot (sorry).

Brooks

Majora was the bravest the series got for sure.

WorKid

WW is amazing.

Olimite

fullspectrum wrote:

The one on the right looks more appealing at this stage.

Absolutely, yes.

Olimite

Another shout for Majora here. Not sure how well it sold or what the critical reaction was, but I've never been more focussed on finishing a Zelda game than I was that one.

hylian_elf

Oooh! Lots of posts! I thought I had missed some great discussion. How wrong I was.

Fentonizer wrote:

http://tevisthompson.com/saving-zelda/

This is the best Zelda critique I've read. Not saying I agree and that Zelda is teh suxx0r but if you are an unwavering Zelda fan this is an insightful read to see the side of those trolls who disagree with you.

Will have to give that a read after work. Oh, and Dark Souls is the best Zelda? It doesn't even play anything like Zelda though.

I don't disagree, by the way, that Zelda has faults. But in my humblest of opinions, it is still great fun, more so than other games, and has far less faults than other games. That still makes each Zelda game amazing for me.

hylian_elf

JonB wrote:

The introduction of the gobby sidekick has probably been Zelda's biggest wrong turn. Reaching its zenith in Skyward Sword as a near game ruining distraction. A STFU option would restore some of the puzzle challenge without any other alterations.

But then, a new set of tools is the other issue - it's easier because I've done it before - and that's more terminal. Zelda will be really good again when it stops being Zelda.

Yeah, that Fi was major annoying. But Zelda to stop being Zelda? I thought Skyward Sword
did change the template a bit. Just a bit though. But I don't think I want the template to change too much. There aren't many games that do Zelda, let alone do it well. So playing a Zelda game once wveery few years certainly doesn't make it feel stale for me. Not as much as playing yet another FPS or over-the-shoulder 3PS.

JonB

It's no coincidence I think that the best ones for me are LttP - the first Zelda I played - and Ocarina - the first one I played in 3D. Part of what makes Zelda great is that it's different from other things and it seems so inventive when you first get given the tools and find out all the ways of using them to solve puzzles. And yet if it changed those tools too much it wouldn't be Zelda. Of course each one changes things a little and has its own unique features, but they're often just interesting novelties, and a lot of it is still about those same old tasks cropping up again, and each time they're that bit more stale.

That's why for me the best way to make a really good Zelda would be not to make one and create a new epic action adventure game instead. As contradictory as that is. Same goes for Metroid to some extent. That's assuming Nintendo still have the skills to do that sort of game justice.

MattyJ

I really did not get on with Skyward Sword at all, but mostly that is the control scheme. Hopefully a WiiU Zelda will see a return to traditional control method.

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