Armitage_Shankburn wrote:I wholeheartedly agree, in fact, part of me honestly believes this issue is a sort of online psi op to divide the left /progressives. That's maybe conspiracy theory, but y'know, it's working. Just look at this thread. Look at kasperian / cenk ughyur TYT thingy recently. Edit- re trans people taking over the discussion. If you mean trans issues, that's my point - if you mean people, you've missed it slightly. I'm talking about men talking over women, telling them shut your fuckface, figuratively speaking, calling them cubts, literally speaking, laughing at their being assaulted. That kinda thing. And specifically groupthink and backslapping ITT. I'm pointing out that this kind of behaviour can easily be seen as plain old miso by some. I'm trying to generate empathy and talk to "my" group in a challenging way. It's interesting that the response has been strawmanbing, zero sum games, climate change and so on. But I can live with that. I don't know how anyone can clap at a woman getting slapped, punched by a much bigger, testosterone enhanced person, or assaulted with a liquid substance and made to wonder for a split second what it is You do that to me and see what happens. Let's see your response if someone does that to youJonB wrote:The amplification of trans issues is more about the pushback against it than trans people taking over discussion. Trans activists will campaign for trans rights to the best of their ability - and why wouldn't they? - but they and their supporters don't have the power to make their agenda a defining cultural issue. Right-wing media and politicians have seized on this as a weapon in their culture wars, while certain feminists have taken to campaigning about this single issue, taking oxygen away from others. When all the furore about a trans rapist in a women's prison was going on a while back, for instance, no one seemed very concerned about the wider issue of safety conditions in women's prisons. So, if there's a problem in this thread, it's that it shows how successful the Right have been in drawing attention away from women's rights issues by framing them as a battle between cis and trans women.Armitage_Shankburn wrote:This is your reminder that this thread started about misogyny in the sense it means , has meant and has happened for 1000s of years affecting circa 51% of all of the people who have ever existed, and is now and has for some time been about a much smaller group of people, a much newer form of prejudice (or conversation about prejudice), much of it aimed at a subset of people who experience misogyny and conceive of it as I described above. Maybe, just maybe, this basic fact - about this thread - will give you a clue as to why some among that group feel aggrieved that the conversation has taken this turn. Someone (male) ITT recently described this woman who was in NZ as a cunt. Unironically, and no one picked him up on it. Maybe, just maybe, as a group of mostly men, mostly straight, overwhelmingly white and privileged folk, we should reflect on that.
I'm a bit lost if this is a response to my post, TBH. I was talking about the scale of the issue being down to intentional culture war stoking by the Right. As in a deliberate effort with the aim of creating division and exclusion.Knight wrote:People shouldn’t campaign vociferously for certain things and when they get pushback from a broad spectrum of people - including the communist party now! - accuse those pushing back of stoking a culture war as if all pushback is just in bad faith and from the far right. They’re the ones wanting to overturn long established patterns, they are seeking to change ‘the culture’ and overturn heteronormativity etc. which is fine, you’re free to campaign for that, we live in a pluralistic society where people are allowed to push for their ideological positions to be accepted more broadly. But don’t disingenuously claim that it’s just a ‘campaign for your rights’ when that campaign includes the literal rejection of a biological sex binary. People are asking to be treated as women on the basis of their self ID (not just after extensive evaluation as has been claimed on this thread) and included in single sex spaces such as elite sport etc. People are pushing irreversible surgery and experimental ‘treatment’ on minors. It’s not simply about trans people being free to live without discrimination and fear and adults being able to present as a different gender to their biological sex. JK Rowling has absolutely no issue with that as she’s stated many times and yet she’s constantly accused of transphobia.
But you're obviously quite invested in this and have been reading around the subject, and I wonder if that's the same with other aspects of feminist struggle. I also know that if any cause I believed in was attracting the interest of actual fascists, I'd see that as much more than unhelpful.As for caring so much - I responded to some , in my opinion unfair, accusations of transphobia from JK Rowling and some misogynistic language used about her, I didn’t bring this up. I’m continuing to engage because various people, including you, have done me the courtesy of responding thoughtfully to various things. That this issue has also been pounced on by bad faith actors (the literal far right) is also indisputable of course and in so far your post picks up on that I agree and think it deeply unhelpful.
RedDave2 wrote:Despite that video I dont understand how for thousands of years so many cultures and countries oceans apart settled on the male/ female idea as the general norm.
Diluted Dante wrote:Plenty of cultures have had the concept of 'third' gender.RedDave2 wrote:Despite that video I dont understand how for thousands of years so many cultures and countries oceans apart settled on the male/ female idea as the general norm.
Let anyone say they are who / what they say they are. Now deal with the consequences
the assumption that all trans people are Male to Female
Brooks wrote:What's actually, materially threatening the viability of comfortably 'traditional' gender performance in 202X? Could it be - and stop me if this is triggering - boring economics?
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