Current Affairs - The Bear and Badger

Dark Soldier

Minnesänger wrote:

I'm a traditionalist, and won't consider it a World War until we're fighting the Germans.

We'd still go out in the semis

poprock

Given the myopia and ego of the UK as a whole, it won’t be talked about as a world war until there are literally physical military attacks on our own soil. Bombs falling on England. Troops landing at Dover. Etc.

Dark Soldier

All the North needs is to run out of gravy and we're ready

poprock

Minnesänger wrote:

I'm a traditionalist, and won't consider it a World War until we're fighting the Germans.

Otherwise it’s just a sparkling skirmish.

Gremill

LivDiv wrote:

Thats a bit of a stretch. Correlation doesn't always mean causation.
Lets hope the lindy hop doesnt come back into fashion.

I'm pre-ordering my Zoot suit.

Wookienopants

Gremill wrote:

LivDiv wrote:

Thats a bit of a stretch. Correlation doesn't always mean causation.
Lets hope the lindy hop doesnt come back into fashion.

I'm pre-ordering my Zoot suit.

Don't you mean dusting down the one in the loft?

Paul the sparky

No, that one got wrecked when he fell into the roadworks that time

poprock

As much as I love TayTay, something is very fucked about our world when all the news places look like this.

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hunk

LivDiv wrote:

There are plenty of opinions that it did but to say it absolutely did, is the primary reason and will again is a stretch. Especially when dealing with a sample of two World Wars one of which wasn't caused by a global financial crash. But youve decided capitalism is at fault for literally everything and we are all absolutely going to die from it unless we magically become a perfect socialist world so there's no point in discussing it anyway, you wont budge from your view.

Okay, first things first as some things need to be clarified.
When I criticise capitalism past and present I criticise right winger ideology and policies, not the west in general. It's a small but very important distinction. It's also important to keep in mind that capitalism is a rightwinger paradigm meaning that the means of production (companies) are basically in the hands of the elite rich few. This vs the leftist socialist marxist view of companies in the hands of the workers and ruled democratically without profit being the main objective. The latter is obviously the worst nightmare for capitalists (the 1%) so obviously leftists who hold this view are branded 'extremists' who won't allow anyone to own anything and have nice things. Not true of course, it's just the means of production democratically owned and collectively run by workers and not the ultra rich. A bit like how open source projects are run, think Linux or wikipedia.

As RedDave pointed out, we may disagree on some things but we have way more in common than we suspect. Which is true because we are all mostly working class lefties right? I just believe it's not a bad thing to strive for a socialist paradigm where there is no billionaire class ruling over us. Such a paradigm shift is unlikely to happen overnight without support of the people so I'll settle for DavyK's suggestion of regulating Big Business. It's a small chance but I'll take it. I'm a pragmatic, what can I say?

The only way I can see this happening is if the left fights back with a counternarrative, something to fight the endless commercial conspiracy theory bs. This is the reason why I keep bringing up past history. Not to annoy you lot per se (although I do enjoy that a fair bit) but because we're stuck in a loop of being gaslighted by the right (prime ex. the Corbyn anti semitism row). If you're not aware of your (political) history you're bound to keep walking in circles making the same mistakes while being gaslighted to kingdom come. The difference between us and them (rightwingers) is they get to punch down while we only get to punch up. In gamerspeak, we have to make those dragon punches count.

As for the quote, Hitler's populist NSDAP got into power after the crash of 29. The jews were an important scapegoat of the right to blame the malaise on. Let's face it, it's basically the same tactic the right is using with the immigration crisis/Gaza right now. It's tried and tested. Even Naomi Klein, a prominent leftist jewish journalist acknowledges this. Just recently but still. Not sure why you would oppose this?

As for how will ww3 look? If we're lucky we won't have to find out in our lifetime.

LivDiv

Cheers Hunk.

Would definitely agree we are of like mind in the need for more socialism. I think perhaps where we differ is the either/or choice of capitalism Vs socialism or Smith Vs Marx.

My view is that both systems existed in forms long before either Smith or Marx were born. Aspects of both have been naturally occuring we as a species and society have evolved. Currently almost every country is a mix of both, there are no 100% capitalist or socialist nations.
I believe that's for a reason, going absolute either way pushes again at our natural intuition. It's a Ying and Yang thing.

Currently the dial is absolutely set way too far to the capitalist end, no argument there. I have faith the dial can be moved and will be moved in time to avoid annihilation, that it would be easier than snapping the dial off and fitting a 'Socialism On' led indicator, which would likely be smashed up again a few decades later in favour of a new 'Capitalism on, this time with a new hat.' led.

hunk

Not a problem dude.
Anything that sets back the permanent 5s. to midnight of the doomsday clock is a good thing in my book. AI, climate change and escalating forever wars are accelarating matters in unpredictable ways. Let's hope you're right.

LivDiv

Should say that while I don't think we will be annihilated there is more hardship coming.

There was an article last week saying how much we will be poorer by virtue of having to pay to fix what climate change breaks, think flood and forest fire damage. British crops are totally fucked this year because it's been so wet, that will drive food prices up again. I'm surprised Israel/Gaza hasn't pushed food up, I guess that's what letting them run riot buys us.

Over the past 9 months or so I've made changes in my life to try to best counter some of this stuff. Overpaying debts to free up money later, trying to be healthier so I have less potential need for the broken NHS.
Some things like coffee and chocolate are going to get expensive like olive oil has, I've knocked caffeine on the head to make ditching coffee altogether easier later, chocolate will be next, already eating better, more expensive less often.
I'm no Doomsday Prepper, I'm not quite sewing cup a soups into the bed sheets yet. Just re-evaluating things away from any idea of the lifestyles my parents and grandparents have enjoyed.

hunk

And this is what I mean by the international left needs to come up with a counter narrative to all the neo lib conspiracy bs that the right are spewing like diarrhea. Something that connects all the dots with 2008 at the epicentre to all the crisis and wars we're experiencing today. Seriously hope the documentary maker succeeds.

Haven't seen the doc yet but looking forward to it.

Brooks

Just more Content.

The narratives have always existed and to some extent have never been easier to access; has made zero difference. All institutional capital is still largely in the hands of the scum (who still manage to throw tantrums because they aren't also able to fully dictate the modes of pop culture and what's left of education too).

What's actually missing is practical tactics for change that you can get people to subscribe to with actual human energy. Traditionally those are disrupting commerce, disrupting core administrative functionality, which are presumably considered too risky else we'd see more attempts. The rest is literally noise.

hunk

True, but it's a narrative the average Joe in the street is not familiar with. If the left wants to grow in numbers (and they absolutely need to grow) and capture the hearts and minds of the public, social media is the fastest possible avenue. Change wont come easy tho, especially when operating in a capitalist paradigm. The game is literally rigged against us with billions of dollars at stake for the capitalists. Grass roots movements and overwhelming numbers might eventually turn the tables in our favour.

If all else fails we'll have to grab pitchforks and demand change?

Brooks

They don't need to be, many people are materially aware they're getting newly arsefucked every time they get a rent hike. Falling living standards are not entirely ambiguous in 2024. What they don't know is how to do anything about that other than grin and bear it. Anyone putting their chips on soc media to do anything but exhaust with horror at this point is retarded.

hunk

That's the thing eh? As many badgers here by now have realised with the forever wars of Gaza and Ukraine, climate change, the migration crisis and the growing inequality/ cost of living crisis; we don't actually have power as power literally rests within the hands of a few capitalists. Our only means of pushing back is our right to vote, organising in local government and grass roots movements, protests and spreading the word. Share it, make it mainstream with the aim of replacing all the bs conspiracy theories the right uses to hijack hearts and minds. Think of it as the pamphlets of old.

Even if revolution and pitchforks was our last and only hope the left is way too small and fringe. We need to spread the word first to grow. Imho.
Change won't come without support of the people.

davyK

Improving peoples' lives would help a great deal. Angry disenfranchised people are easier to sway from a consumer-led angle. The "left" (whatever that is) doesn't seem to have a communicable plan for them.

Government that isn't under lobbyists' influence is the first step.

hunk

Agreed, the left need a counter narrative and an executable plan.
Also agree that lobbies need to go.

In my book Leftism is anyone who dares oppose the (indirect) rule of capitalism's big business.

Brooks

"Spreading the word" is all that anyone seems to get up to because it is basically pretty low cost, low barrier to entry. People seem to do nothing beyond, and I'm pretty tired of it.

hunk

The left is splintered and divided by the gaslighting and narrative of the right. We need to be united internationally (big business already operates on an international level) with a strong narrative and a strategy of our own. Otherwise we won't be able to make any demands at the negotiation table. See the current state of Labour: 3 steps to the right, one step to the left.

It's probably not the answer you were hoping to hear but it's arguably the only viable option we've got. If we fail to change course I fear we'll be consumed by capitalism and neverending dystopian crisis.