Except for Jo Jo... Of course.

I always agreed and without getting on some ggpo with Hilly and having him show me exactly how it stays tactical and not simply who blinks first I can't make a definite call. But he does tell me that all juggles can be flipped out of and is the choice of when to do so that matters

However for me SF has always been about territory management, even if juggles are as he describes, you do place a tricky barrier to entry. I can't simply step back and forward to check range and goad you in, I have to be able to juggle and also to know each juggle to an extent I can weigh up the pros and cons of flipping out at various times

Brooks wrote:

No that's also bullshit. The option is there, so of course you exploit it, but it really shouldn't be there most of the time.

What irks you about juggling? Is it the aesthetic?

When I first noticed the trend in Virtua Fighter 2, I thought 'fuck yeah' that looks cool... 

But then I thought about the idea of a high trained fighter losing 40% plus stamina (as abstracted by a green percentage bar, but lets not go there today), because their opponent had some how managed to defy the laws of physics, and had used the said supernatural advantage to land a barrage of meticulously considered strikes on the left pinky toe/shin of the flighted pugilist...

But, don't mind that, look at the Bruce Lee shuffle the man dun' buss, when he finishes the combo... : P

Blatant.

Your point does stand, because you've obviously put the time in to learning that side of Third Strike, but that 'moment' where one cedes control to forces beyond their reckoning is a key component of any game or sport.

It sounds like it's not just juggling that gets to you (though I'm aggregating your gripes here). Your argument, to me, appears to be more about how dedication is rewarded...

Brooks wrote:

It's more about the kind of dedication rewarded, I think. I want to be beaten by repeated acts of positional/predictive skill, not fucking input robotics.

One could argue that the defense, ultra and damage scaling system in SF4 is effectively an ode to that sentiment, and... Well...

'The less said', etc...

How many reads/punishes/displays of yomi should one make before KOing someone then?

Most fighters these days it seems like 2-4 mistakes will cost you a round depending on the skill of the person dishing out the beats. I don't think that's too few for most games. Anymore and the amount of time it would take to end a round before timeout would start getting close to the wire perhaps?

Brooks wrote:

Damage scaling, while vital, is only part of the story here. My favourite matches to watch and participate in are always raw footsie things, the tension is delicious. I guess I shoulda taken up fencing as a kid.

Nidhogg is jokes, btw... Just throwing that out there...

Where are you, Sas! :}

Roujin wrote:

How many reads/punishes/displays of yomi should one make before KOing someone then? Most fighters these days it seems like 2-4 mistakes will cost you a round depending on the skill of the person dishing out the beats. I don't think that's too few for most games. Anymore and the amount of time it would take to end a round before timeout would start getting close to the wire perhaps?

Sounds like a fucking Snake Eyez match...

I think Brooks' bemani reference sums it up. Assuming everyone ha perfect muscle memory then there's no difference between juggling and chipping. But not everyone can, why make frame counting a barrier to entry for the standard player. It's easier to judge distance than it is to memorise a juggle. We all marvel at Umehara vs Jason, but that wasn't a bunch of reactions, that was one reaction that involved around 25-30 inputs

But yes, Cock's post there articulates my annoyance pretty well. Combowang is a mechanical exercise, and I want to see much more of the organic inna ma fightmans.

Most organic fighting I can think of is probably something like Fight Night Round 3. Trad vs fighter engine design revolves around the startup, active and recovery frame processes that pretty much ensures combowang becomes a thing. The only thing controlling the length of said wang is the hitstun, but you cant dial it back too far otherwise you end up in the crazy world of things beings punishable on hit.

Juggling's definitley in IV, you just have to be Smug. http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/apr/10/smug-lands-one-most-impressive-dudley-combos-weve-ever-seen-ends-round-13-seconds/

Brooks wrote:

I honestly wouldn't resent a return to higher damage with more limited punish extension.

Me too. Fucking love footsies that mean something.

JRPC wrote:

Now sensibly I should set up the 360, attach the £180 tournament stick I never used and play it on that. In reality, I'm going to buy Ultra on PS4 with a new stick. There's no going back-gen.

Ahhh I see, you're forcing my hand to buy that PS4 stick, I like your style.

shit..except I just realised Ultra aint on PS4. Would you consider last genning it in this case? I'm a good teacher!

What we really need is another fighters destiny.


...wot?

Too easy to bait out, for sure. I spend little time on the beast these days but it still occupies my top 3 in some form.

JRPC wrote:

Now sensibly I should set up the 360, attach the £180 tournament stick I never used and play it on that. In reality, I'm going to buy Ultra on PS4 with a new stick. There's no going back-gen.

Ahhh I see, you're forcing my hand to buy that PS4 stick, I like your style.

Ultra's is headed our way also, so if you're buying a stick for 5 anyway....?

Amazon are doing PS4 HRAP's for £84.