The British Politics Thread - The Bear and Badger

Frosty

Thanks Drew, good posts

Rev

Right wingers need something to be angry about and using this to stir up more hatred against the trans community seems to be the reason they're getting their snowflake panties in a bunch.

davyK

The intended purpose of the speech is of prime importance to consider when making a ruling on whether it is hate or not. That's not always easy to discern though. Unfortunately natural language is ambiguous and it then comes down to a semantics conversation. It allows sneaky bastards to say things and wriggle free.

SpaceGazelle

I guess the law changes are a reminder not to be a dick but I wonder how much grey area there is with religious freedom? I've heard people on the street shouting about God and how homosexuality is a sin, but I suppose that could be regarded as a mental health issue.

davyK

splutter...

LivDiv

I didnt realise I had local elections next month in my area until my polling card arrived.

Thought I would have a look at the options, locals always have more flexibility for who you would vote for imo.
Found a useful site called whocanivotfor.co.uk.
Fuck all info on the council candidates, great.

Mayoral candidates are listed.
Lab are sitting and seem fine.
Green have identical key policy points as Lab so Id rather not split the vote and let a cunt in.
Yorkshire Party goes to a blank website, cool, get fucked.
Indy candidate is a "The globalists are attacking drivers" fuckwit.
Smug Tory guy just attacking Labour. Also Arnold Craven is the name of a Beano character Im sure of it.

https://whocanivotefor.co.uk/elections/BD11%201HH/

The effort put in at locals really is a piss take. Lets see if any of them bother canvasing this time.

edit: Just seen the candidate list wont be published until April for Council seats.

monkey

Both the mayoral and PCC elections are Labour / Tory splits in the West Midlands.
The mayor is Andy Street (a Tory) who only ever seems to pop up at election time, spouting something about private investment in the region. The only things I can tell you about his record were he broke the spending limits during the last campaign (justifiable "because it's such an important election") and he did a photo op with Boris Johnson cycling around the canals.
Now the Tories are ballot box poison he's saying he's never been whipped by the Tories and it's important to vote for the individual instead of the party. He's also a smug, Skeletor-looking bell end.

The Labour candidate has promised to take the bus network public and move the net zero target up 6 years to 2035. So that's a done deal for my vote.

The PCC has been Labour since they formed the role. Tories the only close challenger. No Green candidate to vote for. A selection of independents that I'm not going to bother researching. So that's another Labour vote.

monkey

Oh and Andy Street threated to quit the Tories if HS2 Birmingham to Manchester was cancelled. Then it was cancelled. Then he didn't quit.

RedDave2

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/07/police-spammed-with-complaints-by-neo-nazis-under-new-scottish-hate-law

This went well

acemuzzy

Potential criminals in "let's scupper the law" shocker

RedDave2

I'm genuinely not sure how effective adding a hate element to a crime is. How effective does this work in preventing someone from doing a racist or bigoted action when it goes to this extent? If I punch someone in an act of aggression why does it being racially motivated make it worse?

Not to say you are wrong in that pricks will always try to mess up a new law, but surely its a flawed law if this type of thing has to be considered? I havent read a huge amount on it so I'm not pretending I know all the ins and outs but it seems to put the decision on whether something is legit or not on the police which I always think should be out of their hands as it leaves them in an unfair situation.

acemuzzy

I don't the law is solely "adding a hate element" to existing crimes. The inciting hatred stuff, say. Also, as per Drew's posts, much of this is existing laws anyway.

I also think with that protest stuff there's a rush of conflating the implementation (eg anonymous hotlines) with the law itself.

But anyway IANAL and I'm English.

hunk

Absolutely no racial factor here because of Yousaf and neo Nazi's being agitated/triggered because of him. Also, what muzz and drew said.

RedDave2

acemuzzy wrote:

I don't the law is solely "adding a hate element" to existing crimes. The inciting hatred stuff, say. Also, as per Drew's posts, much of this is existing laws anyway.

I also think with that protest stuff there's a rush of conflating the implementation (eg anonymous hotlines) with the law itself.

But anyway IANAL and I'm English.

I meant in general, not specific to the new laws. Certain things seem specific but for example if I assault someone, am I right that it gets buffed if there is racial motivation? I struggle with the concept of this a little because I don't think it should matter what your reasons for assault outside of self defence but does it cause a racist to think twice knowing they will get a harsher sentence?

acemuzzy

I am ok with the legal punishment for being a cunt and a cunt is worse than for just being a cunt. I can't say this has bothered me. I'm not quite clear why it bothers you.

RedDave2

It doesn't bother me, I just don't really get the point.

I don't think it works as a deterant to those type of cunts.

Also to be honest I'd rather the other non- racist offence delivered a harsher term in general.

acemuzzy

Shrug. I wouldn't feel confident to say which crimes are more or less deterred by harsher sentences, and in particular that non-racist crimes are more deterred than racist ones. You'd hope research has been done, it feels speculative to guess otherwise.

Similarly "make penalties harsher" and "make there be zero penalty for racism" feels like an odd juxtaposition.

I think victims of racist elements on such crimes likely welcome increased punishment for it. It's probably easier to dismiss if you hadn't been in those shoes. But I'm cos white males so fuck knows really.

DrewMerson

RedDave2

I reckon it's cold comfort for a victim to know their assailant gets an extra 2 years because its racial.

Simply put if its 10 years for assault and an extra 2 years if racial, why not just make it 12 years all round?

hunk

If one really wants to 'deter' crime (hate-inspired or not), offering higher sentences isn't actualy the way to do it?

DrewMerson

DrewMerson

hunk

Agreed.

Although, was thinking more along the lines of prevention rather than rehabilitation. Reign big tech in and force them to clamp down on the neo nazi stuff. Not going to happen as 'culture wars' are way too profitable a business model (grift) to ever give up. Besides, governments usually don't have the leverage/balls to stand up to big tech.

Plus, the right needs a scapegoat as convenient distraction maneuvre while they fuck over and rob the working class.

DrewMerson

JonB

RedDave2 wrote:

I reckon it's cold comfort for a victim to know their assailant gets an extra 2 years because its racial. Simply put if its 10 years for assault and an extra 2 years if racial, why not just make it 12 years all round?

A one-off assault motivated by personal reasons is just that - one-off. Hate crime has an intimidating effect on a whole section of a community, and the perpetrator remains a danger to those people, along with anyone who shares their ideology and feels emboldened by the act. It's a crime not only against the victim but against social cohesion and inclusivity.

hunk

DrewMerson wrote:

Education, education, education. Rehabilitation is just education that has come too late. Social media censoring doesn’t educate, it entrenches. It kicks the can down the road (as does a custodial sentence with no rehabilitation).

Agree on the point of eduction. Sadly, the implementation of austerity prevents effective education. The only way to break the vicious circle is voting in an effective leftist government who breaks up their (social) media propaganda businessmodel and breaks with austerity.

As long as the circle is intact it will keep feeding and nurturing the far right. It will keep growing and the amount of hatecrimes will keep increasing. It's simple cause and effect.

LivDiv

From the front page of The Times. Hoping this is legible still.

In short Rwanda built homes for the arrival of refugees from the UK but have now sold 70% of them to locals because presumably they dont expect many/any actual arrivals.

g.man

Sounds lovely. I might buy one myself.

LivDiv

Electricity, water AND fibre.
They are going to have their own small boat crossings at this rate.

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