davyK wrote:

I'm with @Armitage_Shankburn.

The nation is very much broken. Too many comfortable people (and I include myself in this) just looked the other way when faced with a large portion of the population being shanghai-ed by successive governments with austerity being the last straw.

We need time and space to do this and I don't think leaving the EU at this point in time is a good idea. I don't think we are going to get the time and space to do that because of the furore.  As much as I dislike Johnson he is probably the only one who might be able to talk the heat out of this. But he is rapidly running out of credit, and the shadow of the Brexit Party looms large.

I'm not really for kicking the can down the road until January either.

A GE is probably better than a 2nd ref provided there are sensible options represented by viable parties or alliances.  A ref outcome would require a majority in the House to see it through. A clean GE has a better chance of success.

The chances of a GE not producing another hung parliament are pretty low, IMO, at which point we’re pretty much right back where we started.

At least a ref can give a clear answer one way or the other.

It's important to realise I'm not criticising anyone here. I include myself in those who had to examine themselves after 2016. This is an opportunity, the country's sickness was revealed for all to see. As a balance sheet exercise, remain may be the best thing, but this sickness will grown and bite us in the end. Or we could have an acrimonious exit with the blame game to follow. But there is a middle way. You can talk to leavers and tell them this, and they will respect you. Many of them deep down know or suspect this was a "technical mistake", but it's the speaking down to them, the patronising them, the superiority complex that makes them double down on their path. It is a very common human reaction, as this thread's recent turn exemplifies.

I don't think a second referendum is the best way to do that, but we are where we are. It's a decent compromise. It can be explained - concrete outcomes are now on display.

The lib Dems revoke art 50 position is an irresponsible escalation of the problem in this country, that's all I meant to say.

I quite like James O'Brien. I think exposing leave fallacies is a good thing. I just think, for whatever reason, he failed to advocate for compromise until recently.

Minnesänger wrote:

He's a smug prick. And rude. 

I know he's right, too. But much of it seems for his own gratification and that of his listeners.

Maybe I relate too much

I love it when you talk dirty

Yeah, I wouldn't be ok with that.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

It means understand, in Italian. It's an expression.

Guess what? I know what it means. I also know that it’s used almost exclusively by people trying to come across as hard or intimidating. Given that the last time I saw you using it was in a typically aggressive post, and the rest of the post in this thread also came across as aggressive, it didn’t seem to far a leap to think that you, like everyone else who uses it, were trying to sound threatening. But it never works, and people just sound like fannies.

If it was a rare use of the word that was, in fact, written entirely calmly, then fair enough. (It still makes you look like a fanny, though.)

Ive had to phase it out because people keep bollocking me for it. I don't agree, mind, but I'd rather keep the peace.

Andy wrote:

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

It means understand, in Italian. It's an expression.

Guess what? I know what it means. I also know that it’s used almost exclusively by people trying to come across as hard or intimidating. Given that the last time I saw you using it was in a typically aggressive post, and the rest of the post in this thread also came across as aggressive, it didn’t seem to far a leap to think that you, like everyone else who uses it, were trying to sound threatening. But it never works, and people just sound like fannies.

If it was a rare use of the word that was, in fact, written entirely calmly, then fair enough. (It still makes you look like a fanny, though.)

Maybe it's a cultural thing. I say capisce occasionally, and ciao all the time. I'm a tad sad that this trait makes me look like a fanny.

acemuzzy wrote:

But it's a touchy subject, and Gonz is a cunt's cunt, so hands off.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

I quite like James O'Brien. I think exposing leave fallacies is a good thing. I just think, for whatever reason, he failed to advocate for compromise until recently.

I like more of him than I dislike.

His main problem is he falls into the trap of behaving exactly to type wrt Brexiteers calling people Remoaners. He doesn't always do it but when he does it really doesn't help.

If you want people to realise they were wrong or misdirected it requires a gentler touch and an ability to not come across as a smart arse.

I'm directing that at O'Brien by the way. 

no need to bring his height into this Temps....

Lads this talk of staying in the EU and fixing it... Do you know how fantastical it sounds.

The UK is in no position, logically, morally, or even just possessing the technical ability to "fix" the EU.

If it was the U.K. alone saying changes needed to be made to the EU, I’d say you have a point, but the case for reform is being made from several places, not least Macron.

The UK remaining in the EU would mean a change of Government. A new government with a totally different approach wouldn't be working with Tory credit.