The crucial point is 'did he rape her?'.

Without the rape there is no motive, beyond anything that would make the conviction insanity.
Yet there is no evidence of rape without Brendan's statement, a statement clearly forced.
The problem is the courts aren't set up to assess the case in that way.

Aye- that was a point that I never typed- the insistence of rape, without evidence bar the coerced statement. Really did make me think about torturous interrogation tech..

Anyway must go bed before I start that web search into all of this...

If anything I admire how scousers have kept pushing for justice and the complete refusal to buy The Sun.
Anyone with any sense watching what happened could have seen innocent people died. Even if some fans were dick heads (which is highly likely) the victims were victims, even the dick heads don't deserve to die and the police should have put their hands up and admitted they couldn't handle the situation.
It was a tragedy and with just a fragment of humility from the police that is how it would have been remembered.

Fanatics are always dickheads, that's certain- whether it's hype over a videogame or hype over a team. It's disingenuous to shorten the term to fan. Although I'm fanatical about this forum so I guess I just broke the rule. Aye, the passion of the campaigners, in light of the evidence is something very emotional, if you think about it.

Andway- lets re-rail- oh, you're already on it!

Did they actually match the bullet to a gun? I thought they just found it in the garage and that was good enough for them.

Oh. It says it was from his gun in that article... Read first dingus.

Which GF, the one who disappears or the one who appears in the last.

As said not done any reading...Avery abused his nephew?

That section of the phone call is certainly very interesting and it reveals a lot that the documentary makers left it out. However, given the overall confession is so suspect due to the interviews and the coercion, I can't see how it can really be used as evidence of guilt? There is no certainty what was said was true at all.

The phone calls to Theresa are certainly interesting. I did see that Strang has spoken about them recently, saying they didnt come up in the documentary/trial because they were easily explained.

Whilst I think he is innocent, I cannot be 100% certain and I certainly would not be certain enough to sign a petition for his release!

Facewon wrote:

Have at it, @Nick_md

Thanks!


Now onto a long post...


Right, so, I go back and forth quite a lot in my mind, but never to any degree of certainty, not anywhere near to convict anyway. Too much muddle before even looking at how the case was handled. Not least of my concerns is that no other suspects were considered or investigated.

The link Mr. Face posts early on was new to me, and agree on face value it seems damning, but each are explainable I feel - and I do so without saying these are *the* reasons, but merely perfectly possible explanations:

— In the months leading up to Halbach’s disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.

In the same way you may request the same doctor, mechanic, broadband customer support person who you've dealt with before? It hardly suspicious on its own, imo. I'm sure we've all done something similar.

— Halbach had complained to her boss that she didn’t want to go out to Avery’s trailer anymore, because once when she came out, Avery was waiting for her wearing only a towel (this was excluded for being too inflammatory). Avery clearly had an obsession with Halbach.

Just as the first point is explained by Avery preferring to deal with the same person, maybe someone he liked, Halbach is also perfectly capable of taking a natural dislike to the shabby, ex-convict with borderline intelligence who's taken a shine to her, and request not to be sent. The towel thing, odd as it may be, is normal behaviour for many people (greeting at the door in a bath robe/towel). That nugget *could* be seen to be purely there to paint the character of the man as desired by the case against.

— On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.

The man isn't smart. It's reasonable to suggest that when he became aware she wanted to avoid him and wasn't taking his calls, he decided to *67 her to get through. It's a dumb move but it doesn't equate guilt.

— The bullet with Halbach’s DNA on it came from Avery’s gun, which always hung above his bed.

Several people would have access to this weapon over the 8? days of searching on the property, plenty of time to take it, fire a bullet and retrieve it for evidence planting, which given the other alleged actions of Lenk is not beyond belief. If this gun *was* the murder weapon, then it could just have easily been a different person who took it and committed the murder.

— Avery had purchased handcuffs and leg irons like the ones Dassey described holding Halbach only three weeks before (Avery said he’s purchased them for use with his girlfriend, Jodi, with whom he’d had a tumultuous relationship — at one point, he was ordered by police to stay away from her for three days).

There is no law against owning handcuffs or leg irons and it may not have been a secret that they were in Avery's possession, hence the inclusion in Dassey's account. The tumultuous relationship part could be further character assassination - Jodi was also ordered to stay away from Avery for several weeks, no? After waving to him during a period where no contact was allowed. What were the reasons of this restraining order placed on Avery?

— Here’s the piece of evidence that was presented at trial but not in the series that I find most convincing: In Dassey’s illegally obtained statement, Dassey stated that he helped Avery moved the RAV4 into the junkyard and that Avery had lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Even if you believe that the blood in Halbach’s car was planted by the cops (as I do), there was also non-blood DNA evidence on the hood latch. I don’t believe the police would plant — or know to plant — that evidence.

Did Avery touch her car on legitimate reasons? Did he give TH a sweaty rag to check her car? Agree this is harder to explain away as the blood, but in an auto yard it can't be completely impossible for the salvage man's sweat to get onto the car of an Auto Trader employee who's visiting to meet with him.


Again, those are just possible explanations that came to mind, some require more benefit of doubt than others, perhaps.


Onto the case itself, like someone has said, I would not sign a petition to have him released from prison. I would sign a petition to have the case re-examined though. That no other suspects were investigated is unbelievable. The most concerning of these suspects for me are Tadych (his brother in-law) and the other Dassey boy, for the following reasons:

- Both alibi each other and each other only.
- Tadych tried to sell a .22 rifle shortly after the murder (which I believe would be the actual murder weapon, not the rifle of Avery's).
- Both contradict themselves at various points in testimony, with the younger also being contradicted as to Halbach's timeline by the school bus driver.
- The joyous reception to SA's conviction by Tadych.
- Reports of Tadych being a nervous wreck on the morning of SA's arrest.
- The Dassey brother sporting scratches over his back the week of TH's disappearance that he claimed he got from a dog.
- Reports of Tadych having a history of violent and sexual assaults.
- Lastly, I *think* in the show, when SA is first being interviewed on tape about the murder, he gives his account of the TH meeting as - he went into his trailer, put the Auto Trader mag down by his computer, then when he came out she was gone and his (step) brother's vehicle was gone? (I'm really not sure about this part, would need to watch again)


All that said, I wouldn't convict them on this alone, but by christ investigate them ffs.

Other things still troubling:

- The deleted phone calls. I think likely to be from the ex boyfriend, who is also high on the suspicion list.

- Not all of the blood swabs were tested for midichlorians. FBI man said none present, other expert said would be impossible to ascertain from that selection. Test all the swabs several times, because if just one midichlorian is found then it proves placement of the blood.

- What motive does SA have? He was on the verge of securing millions. If he wanted kinky* sex he could afford it with as many TH lookalikes as he wished, if indeed he was infatuated. Are we to believe he was just so criminal and stupid that he'd rape and murder a woman that is documented as visiting him, then dispose of the body on his property, then move a few hip bones to a quarry?

- Expert level crime scene sanitising. I don't believe at all that a murder took place in his trailer or garage.


There're loads more I could list but this has taken enough to type out. Let's Quincy this shit!


*that is, handcuffs etc, not rape!

Also what is with that tape of TH that plays in the first episode. That is weird as fuck. Who tapes themselves talking about how if they die they just want their family to know she was happy. I'm not saying that in relation to guilt or suspicion of anyone, it was just weird.

I think a lot of the things that people are expecting the prosecution to investigate, the more I see this stuff is that the prosectution won't investigate anything if they think they have the culprit in custody, they build the best case they can around that suspect using the evidence they can easily collect or already have available, conducting a wide ranging investigation to rule out other people would be a waste of their time by their batshit logic. 

Kratz's fall from grace is delicious however if people want to read up how some of the people have got on since the events of the documentary.

I read something about her being at least 1hr late to the appt, so that's reason enough for him to be ringing her. Also it could explain why he hid his number, in case she was avoiding his calls.

Parts of nicks post do stretch the realms of possibility a bit. I mean you can kinda come up with alternatives for just about any evidence on most cases, but you will be stretching the possibility of likelihood somewhat.

About the dna under the hood of the car tho - didnt he in his first police interview say she said she had trouble with her car?
I cant remember.

The jurors being related to the sheriffs department is correct. There were two I think, one related to the MCSD in some way and the other related to someone working at the crime lab. 

The defence were aware of this however, so it seems likely that they had used up all their remaining strikes during the selection process. 

The initial vote being 7/3 not guilty and then swinging to a guilty conviction is the bit I can't square. Christ only knows who said what to who in that jury room to end up where they did.

Roujin wrote:

Christ only knows who said what to who in that jury room to end up where they did.

Nothing probably said, more likely a certain look across the table. Like you said earlier, franchises (was you right?). I can understand going against the good old boys in the town you live in striking a certain amount of fear in you.

I get that, but what's sad about that is that in that jury room, those people if they felt pressured to vote guilty essentially chose a hassle free life for themselves at the cost of sending a guy to jail without parole for the rest of his life. 

I couldn't live with myself if I made a choice on that basis.