Politics of the Free - It’s because Democrats, stupid. - The Bear and Badger

Kow

During economic crisis you may be secure financially but your worry is the hordes that aren't.

djchump

My general rule of thumb; who stands to gain?
And now that YouTube hits and subs can be monetised, there's even more incentive to be a loudmouth populist. Who knows, might even get you to the White House lol.

Vela

JonB wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by racist based or class based fascism

Racist based = fascism where white supremacists have apologists giving them the excuse of economic anxiety instead of a lifetime of racism

Class based = a broad spectrum of people from multiple ethnic groups singling out another class group (Indonesian massacres of 1965 seem like this - the opposite spectrum of a communist uprising).

hunk

@ Vela
Distinction between class and race is arguably null and void as it is the exact same phenomena in a different part of the world.

Yes, the jews and chinese diaspora are upper class and the blacks and latino's are not. What they have in common is they are easy scapegoats to the local population on which to vent their rage.

Yossarian

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/08/we-just-feel-like-we-dont-belong-here-anymore/

JonB

hunk wrote:

Tempy wrote:

Just a really dumb question here @JonB - whilst fascism grows in times of economic crisis, why are many of the loudest fascists so economically secure? I was angling at this a ton of pages back when Goober blamed the circumstances for the rise in this line of thinking, when a lot of the circumstances (Immigrants taking our jobs) are largely disproven.

The answer is simple if a bit obscured. Think Russia's billionaire oligarchy and you get a glimpse of why certain conservatives strive for fanning the nationalist flame. To some it's an ideal model of doing business. It's how they sell their revisionist economic plans of privatisation to the people. People think the issue is one of nationalist pride and immigrants but in truth it's about shaking up the economy by reshuffling the cards; big deals behind closed cutains.

I think it's also because otherwise the finger of blame could/should be pointed at them. If economic inequality is becoming a major problem then a lot of the wealthier classes don't want to arrive at the conclusion that it's because they have too much money. Consciously or not, stirring up nationalism is a way of deflecting that and making sure the economic hierarchy doesn't get shaken up too much.

hunk

True dat!

Tempy

Cheers folks

JonB

Vela wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by racist based or class based fascism

Racist based = fascism where white supremacists have apologists giving them the excuse of economic anxiety instead of a lifetime of racism

Class based = a broad spectrum of people from multiple ethnic groups singling out another class group (Indonesian massacres of 1965 seem like this - the opposite spectrum of a communist uprising).

I see what you mean - a lot of the Latin American coups in the 70s and 80s would fit the latter definition too.

I don't think class based is necessarily the right term though, because fascism effectively involves a section of the elite remaining in power (often at the expense of another section) rather than a change in class structure. It also appeals to 'traditional values', which tend to mean people knowing their place. Indonesia etc would still have been framed largely as a nationalist cause against the infiltration of the foreign communist influence, affecting their social values etc.

Vela

hunk wrote:

@ Vela Distinction between class and race is arguably null and void as it is the exact same phenomena in a different part of the world. Yes, the jews and chinese diaspora are upper class and the blacks and latino's are not. What they have in common is they are easy scapegoats to the local population on which to vent their rage.

Scapegoats are well known, and that's not disputed.

How does fascism manifest when there is no easy scapegoat though?

mistercrayon

The easy scapegoat is a means to an end I would guess.

I mean would we describe modern Russia as fascist? It didn't have a race based ousting of poverty narrative (and introduced capitalism!). But it's got all the hallmarks (industry consolidated into a few people, propaganda, national id and strongmen).

It's partly why I don't fully get on board with it being purely economic. Why do the arguments of race chime so strongly yet the arguments of e.g. Socialist parties not?

Both are about ostensibly dealing with the inherent wealth inequality, yet racisim is really striking the chord that ends up winning elections.

Tempy

arf.

(The counter-protest went by largely without incident. Trump called the counter-protesters "police agitators" because he is an insipid cunt.)

Yossarian

Some estimates put the ratio of counter-protestors to protestors at 1,000:1.

Tempy

There's an amazing video of it floating around the web.

Tempy

Also it turns out that most of these confederate monuments that people are going mad to defend as part of a post Civil War era history, the same monuments that are easily torn down, and crumple like plastic when they do, actually went up mostly around the Jim Crow era and the Black Civil Rights movement. Hmm.

Diluted Dante

Yep, nothing to do with the era.

Tempy

It's almost like they were mass produced in response to concerns about the transition of power and importance from White guys. The Early 1900s verison of youtube stars and alt-news sites.

Bollockoff

stonechalice

Kris t

WorKid

JonB

mistercrayon wrote:

It's partly why I don't fully get on board with it being purely economic. Why do the arguments of race chime so strongly yet the arguments of e.g. Socialist parties not?

Both are about ostensibly dealing with the inherent wealth inequality, yet racisim is really striking the chord that ends up winning elections.

I wouldn't say it was purely economic. I'd say economic issues such as increasing poverty or inequality are the catalyst for its growth. You don't get significant fascist movements without underlying economic problems.

There are then cultural reasons why it takes hold at certain times and in certain places over more progressive alternatives. One that's fairly universal is that it's easier. Psychologically it's also a way of externalising guilt - and I think there's a lot of repressed guilt in modern societies because of the way we live. Then there's more specific stuff like globalisation making employment unstable, which seems to point to the easy answer of nationalist protectionism. Or the way consumerism erodes the sense of clear values that used to govern behaviour, leaving people uncertain how things work and what their role is in the world. In this case, anyone who offers a clear position of authority may seem attractive.

Above all at the moment though there's also the lack of another credible alternative, because 'the left' was effectively wiped out/wiped itself out and still hasn't fully recovered. And this is a global issue. It's a huge ideological battle just to get people to accept something like socialism could be a workable alternative again (see reaction to Corbyn's fairly tame social democracy as example).

So all that and more, but it doesn't happen without the economic crisis.

djchump

Tempy wrote:

There's an amazing video of it floating around the web.

https://mobile.twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/898989750295470080/video/1

Heh

Yossarian

According to the evidence collected in this article (there may well be contradictory stuff out there for all I know), there is no correlation between rises in racism and times of economic hardship or political instability, at least in the US.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/16/16153616/trumps-idea-that-jobs-will-solve-racism-is-just-wrong

hunk

Outbursts of racism aren't just about economic hardship. It's all about identity, Social Economic Status and wether that is being threatened.

That is what neo nazi's fear mostly. You only need listen to their chants: They will not replace us...It applies to the existential factors mentioned above.

The white conservatives of the US don't need to be poor to feel their position is threatened.
The alt right isn't poor, they're middle class white kids who feel their position (ses) is being threatened, besieged by minorities and women.
Hence their affiliation with the far right.

Escape

It's been a good while since I read any American history, but Stonewall Jackson seemed about as progressive as Lincoln from what I recall. Not that it matters now, but didn't Lincoln go one further than Jackson and advocate repatriation?

JonB

Yossarian wrote:

According to the evidence collected in this article (there may well be contradictory stuff out there for all I know), there is no correlation between rises in racism and times of economic hardship or political instability, at least in the US. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/16/16153616/trumps-idea-that-jobs-will-solve-racism-is-just-wrong

Not sure what to say to that. Seems absurd.

Plus there's right now for evidence - 30 years of increasing inequality and the rise of an extreme right-wing politics that has (so far) culminated in Trump. What is he just so persuasive he convinced millions of people to be racist again?

Yossarian

Perhaps he has allowed racists who otherwise would have kept their racism to themselves to express their racism again?

cockbeard

No, you should blame Obama, if all those whitey's hadn't had to bite their tongue for the last 8 years they wouldn't have eight years worth of bile to vent

Bollockoff

Another naval warship collision. Very fishy.

hunk

Jeez, NK must be laughing their arses off.
Inept morons that yankee navy bunch.

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