Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers
  • Yes. Finally some common sense. Now we just need to, wait, what’s this?
    “We will use funds returned from Brussels after Brexit to invest in our public services and jobs of the future, not tax cuts for the richest.”

    Sigh.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-brussels-funds-12084323
  • I wouldn't want to be a farmer right now.
  • I wouldn't want to be a farmer.
  • Yossarian
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    Fintan O’Toole has a decent piece on the knot that the UK has tied itself into over NI.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/25/brexit-vision-england-perfidy-over-ireland-good-friday-agreemnt

  • Keir Starker could well be the most astute politician around today, which is weird cos he really isn't a politician
  • monkey wrote:
    Yes. Finally some common sense. Now we just need to, wait, what’s this?
    “We will use funds returned from Brussels after Brexit to invest in our public services and jobs of the future, not tax cuts for the richest.”

    Sigh.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-brussels-funds-12084323

    What's the problem? Someone needs to win over those brexit voters from the labour heartlands. This is telling them there will be an investment in public services,a major vote winner from the momentum campaigning at the last general - who swung several anti-immigration voters by focusing on labour's pledge to ensure schools, housing and health is properly funded to ensure there is adequate provision for all, not competition with immigrants. It's good politics. That the money won't really come from the EU because it'll cost us more to leave isn't (1) the fault of labour or (2) that relevant to those voters. It's just a clever accounting trick.

    Months ago, you and a few others in this forum accused Corbyn of ring well intentioned, principled but ultimately a vote loser who lacks pragmatism and nous. Here we have an display of political acumen, and you imply that he is cocking something up. I can't help but feel that for some people, Corbyn simply cannot win.
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    A disconnection to his working-class would-be voters seems to be the hurdle. They outnumber us.

    If it's a choice between regrettable concessions and Tories...
  • If someone is making out there’s some big cash prize from Brexit that can be pumped back into Britain, they’re lying or stupid. He wants Brexit, he’s lying about it’s benefits. It’s not on the side of a bus, but it’s the same.
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    If you think he can do what you'd like him to do and win a GE, you're a bubbleman.

    Intelligent voters are the stark minority.
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    Escape wrote:
    If you think he can do what you'd like him to do and win a GE, you're a bubbleman.

    Intelligent voters are the stark minority.

    Yup.
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    I know it's far from perfect, but it's so far ahead of the Tories I wouldn't dare rock their boat an inch. Who has confidence in their lead being that comfortable?

    I'd much rather this spread-thinly campaign of general goodness that reaches the majority over anything that the Tories have to offer. Corbyn reaffirmed the scrapping of tuition fees today, for example. Small steps.
  • monkey wrote:
    If someone is making out there’s some big cash prize from Brexit that can be pumped back into Britain, they’re lying or stupid. He wants Brexit, he’s lying about it’s benefits. It’s not on the side of a bus, but it’s the same.

    Thanks for engaging with the points I actually made m8.

  • Escape wrote:
    If you think he can do what you'd like him to do and win a GE, you're a bubbleman.

    Intelligent voters are the stark minority.

    It's worse than that, I'm pretty sure if I went back I can find a dozen posts from monkey saying Corbyn is a principled but naive guy who isn't willing to play the game to win an election.

  • Escape wrote:
    If you think he can do what you'd like him to do and win a GE, you're a bubbleman.

    Intelligent voters are the stark minority.

    Yup.

    Best just lie to the thickos then, reinforce prejudice and misunderstanding. It’s a reaction against that sort of spineless cynicism that put Corbyn in charge in the first place.

    Not that I think it’s that big of a deal. Just silly to have your Brexit bloke arguing on tv for the benefits of CU membership while your leader is off somewhere else saying it’s all going to be wonderful when we leave.
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    monkey wrote:
    It’s a reaction against that sort of spineless cynicism that put Corbyn in charge in the first place.

    In my case it's because me and my family have been royally fucked by the Tories and I'll accept a serious amount of tactical compromise for something better.

    I'd say that that's what helped put Corbyn in charge, and so he owes it to those voters to represent them through honourable deception. I believe the ones who have a problem with this approach are a large minority.
  • legaldinho wrote:
    monkey wrote:
    If someone is making out there’s some big cash prize from Brexit that can be pumped back into Britain, they’re lying or stupid. He wants Brexit, he’s lying about it’s benefits. It’s not on the side of a bus, but it’s the same.

    Thanks for engaging with the points I actually made m8.
    Alright fair point, give me a minute.
  • Yossarian
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    There’s at least some research that would suggest that a stronger push for either remaining, or at least remaining closer to the EU wouldn’t harm Labour’s prospects much:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/18/labour-win-election-party-of-remain-brexit

    Of course, it’s possible that this group worked backwards from their conclusions, and it may be that a seat by seat breakdown may look a bit worse, but I don’t rule out Labour being able to make this case and still win a GE.
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    I get to read right-wing tabs every day if I can muster the power to, and they're all over the shop right now. I wouldn't like to risk feeding them. Even some of their readers are disappointed in Bradley.
  • legaldinho wrote:
    monkey wrote:
    Yes. Finally some common sense. Now we just need to, wait, what’s this?
    “We will use funds returned from Brussels after Brexit to invest in our public services and jobs of the future, not tax cuts for the richest.”

    Sigh.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-brussels-funds-12084323

    What's the problem? Someone needs to win over those brexit voters from the labour heartlands. This is telling them there will be an investment in public services,a major vote winner from the momentum campaigning at the last general - who swung several anti-immigration voters by focusing on labour's pledge to ensure schools, housing and health is properly funded to ensure there is adequate provision for all, not competition with immigrants. It's good politics. That the money won't really come from the EU because it'll cost us more to leave isn't (1) the fault of labour or (2) that relevant to those voters. It's just a clever accounting trick.

    Months ago, you and a few others in this forum accused Corbyn of ring well intentioned, principled but ultimately a vote loser who lacks pragmatism and nous. Here we have an display of political acumen, and you imply that he is cocking something up. I can't help but feel that for some people, Corbyn simply cannot win.
    None of his vote-winning spending plans need him to lie about the source of the funding. And there’ll be less spending because of Brexit than there otherwise would be. Seems like he’s still in the same fantasy zone as the Tory hardliners.

    I think I’ve probably already admitted that he’s wilier than I initially gave him credit for. The election showed he’s got some idea of what he’s doing. The constructive ambiguity on Brexit isn’t all bad either. It’s not what I want but it’s giving the Tories all the rope they need to hang themselves so fine really. Spreading EU disinformation is not a game he should be getting into though. What happens when the thickos are on the end of mega austerity and the Tories and Labour have both lied about some massive bonanza coming their way?

    It’s one line in a speech that no one will care about though. Not the end of the world.

    Edit - Double standards to excuse it as a ‘ends justify the means’ thing though if you wouldn’t accept similar bullshit from a Tory.
  • Escape wrote:
    monkey wrote:
    It’s a reaction against that sort of spineless cynicism that put Corbyn in charge in the first place.

    In my case it's because me and my family have been royally fucked by the Tories and I'll accept a serious amount of tactical compromise for something better.

    I'd say that that's what helped put Corbyn in charge, and so he owes it to those voters to represent them through honourable deception. I believe the ones who have a problem with this approach are a large minority.
    The deception is completely unneeded. He’s not serving anyone. Just reinforcing the destructive ignorance that will leave them worse off.

    I don’t think he sees it that way obviously. All for the greater good or something. Even though it isn’t. Either that or he’s clueless.
  • Escape
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    Remaining in the CU's something that most people readily see the benefits of. Only the staunchest EDFers are likely to reject it.

    But some of the things that you appear to want are — in the estimation of many of us here — liable to lose an unknown quantity of votes. Why chance it? How much more monstrous do the Tories have to be before you'll compromise from your position of relative privilege (versus the millions in poverty that Labour would better serve, even though most of them don't realise it)?
  • monkey wrote:
    legaldinho wrote:
    monkey wrote:
    Yes. Finally some common sense. Now we just need to, wait, what’s this?
    “We will use funds returned from Brussels after Brexit to invest in our public services and jobs of the future, not tax cuts for the richest.”

    Sigh.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-brussels-funds-12084323

    What's the problem? Someone needs to win over those brexit voters from the labour heartlands. This is telling them there will be an investment in public services,a major vote winner from the momentum campaigning at the last general - who swung several anti-immigration voters by focusing on labour's pledge to ensure schools, housing and health is properly funded to ensure there is adequate provision for all, not competition with immigrants. It's good politics. That the money won't really come from the EU because it'll cost us more to leave isn't (1) the fault of labour or (2) that relevant to those voters. It's just a clever accounting trick.

    Months ago, you and a few others in this forum accused Corbyn of ring well intentioned, principled but ultimately a vote loser who lacks pragmatism and nous. Here we have an display of political acumen, and you imply that he is cocking something up. I can't help but feel that for some people, Corbyn simply cannot win.
    None of his vote-winning spending plans need him to lie about the source of the funding. And there’ll be less spending because of Brexit than there otherwise would be. Seems like he’s still in the same fantasy zone as the Tory hardliners.

    I think I’ve probably already admitted that he’s wilier than I initially gave him credit for. The election showed he’s got some idea of what he’s doing. The constructive ambiguity on Brexit isn’t all bad either. It’s not what I want but it’s giving the Tories all the rope they need to hang themselves so fine really. Spreading EU disinformation is not a game he should be getting into though. What happens when the thickos are on the end of mega austerity and the Tories and Labour have both lied about some massive bonanza coming their way?

    It’s one line in a speech that no one will care about though. Not the end of the world.

    Edit - Double standards to excuse it as a ‘ends justify the means’ thing though if you wouldn’t accept similar bullshit from a Tory.

    Like I said, it's not a lie - just clever accounting. 8bn into financial services from a cut in contributions. Net loss to UK economy of leaving the EU? The result of Tory lies. But unlike the Tories who ran the leave campaign - and knowingly stuck a lie on the campaign bus, labour do realise that the squeeze on public services need addressing. I'm actually with you on lies. The don't believe in lying to stupid people. I post here pointing out people's stupidity all the time, knowing full well they'll hate me for it and not actually change their mind. That's on them.

    You're seeing a lie where there is none. This is simple political messaging. There will actually be a saving in contributions to the EU budget (though it's scale will depend on the deal). There will almost certainly be a net cost to leaving the EU, but Corbyn isn't actually saying "we will leave the EU and this will result in a massive economic bonanza which we will spend on you". It's actually pretty simple bud.

  • Yossarian
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    If we don’t keep a close relationship with the EU, preferably in the single market, then hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost and tax receipts will crater. There’ll be far more people in need and far less money available to look after them.

    If the plan is to pretend that won’t happen in order to get into power, I can see it backfiring very badly when reality hits and the government gets the blame.
  • This is actually a brilliant strategy if they can pull it off. It's an attempt to replicate the "two campaigns" of the GE 2017, but on purpose. The two campaigns, were, of course, the result of chaos in labour - the party machine and PLP ditching Corbyn and preparing for minimising losses in marginals, Corbyn and momentum going for large rallies and get the vote out (primarily to get his share of the popular vote up to stave off the inevitable leadership challenge /coup).

    I personally believe that if the two had worked together more effectively Rudd and Greening would be on the speech circuit right now. I would prefer a coherent, central campaign. But what do I know, I'm instinctually a centralist / holistic messager. Maybe in this new era, you need to give different groups enough to latch onto. Or maybe there is still chaos and no one knows what's happening.
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    Twitter thread looking at Labour leavers and their likelihood of switching parties if Labour aim for a closer relationship with the EU:

    https://twitter.com/kevcunningham/status/967907521372540928
  • There's quote a lot of ill-feeling up north I can tell you.

    UKIP are relevant again.
  • Fiver says they aren't.
  • Corbyn also seeking Cake and Eating It deal. A slightly less wishful one but still reasonably fanciful ambitious.

    Yes to CU and yes to agencies but no to ECJ and no to state aid rules and no to FMoP and no to single market and yes to control and yes we'll influence the EU on the trade deals we want and the rules we want and no to paying in on the same terms. No answer on services unfortunately.

    Quite a risky move if he's trying to rip the Tories apart because he could equally rip his own party in two. For every Tory rebel he could lose a Labour rebel.

    Fascinating shit either way. It's good to see Corbyn willing to put aside his personal antipathy for the EU and push for the a CU. Must have been quite difficult to do. Wonder what JM thinks - as Shadow Chancellor he should be banging the drum for the CU too.

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